Michael Ignatieff asks why Canadian livestock producers were left out of the budget.
Here, we simply ask: Why did the Liberals support this budget?
Every time one of these stupid, pointless videos appears, we’ll ask the same question. Over and over and over and…
Red Tory v.3.0.3 
Why did the Liberals support this budget?
Is it not obvious? They had no choice, it was the only move they could make to save their own political hides.
As always, it’s not what’s good for the country but what’s good for the Liberal Party.
‘nough said….
And if they hadn’t supported it the country would have been served how, Kat?
I don’t have a problem with the Liberals having supported the budget per se, but it should have been with amendments (more than the one they “demanded” that the Conservatives report their spending on a quarterly basis — which would have, or should have been forthcoming in any case) and/or a detailed list of their grievances at the time.
As it is now, this drip, drip, drip of questions about why the Conservatives didn’t include this, that or the other thing seems like nothing but political gamesmanship. And of a fairly pointless kind too. On the one hand, we’re led to understand that the Liberals have been working with the Conservatives on matters related to the budget, but then, every day, they get up and grandstand in QP carping about how horrible and deeply flawed it is.
Maybe I’m missing something here…
And if they hadn’t supported it the country would have been served how, Kat?
By a coalition that would have gotten things done…
By a coalition that would have gotten things done…
or we could have ended up with a coalition with one partner explaining why he made negative ads about another one or possibly even an election which would have meant more time without a government. The only people that would have loved that would be night-watchmen state supporters.
The coalition isn’t that rosy of an alternative.
It is called ‘letting the government answer to the people’. Direct questions, confidently and calmly and constantly asked, day after day. Instead of jumping up and down in a rage. Instead of objecting to whatever they do out of hand, sight unseen. Demonstrating a responsible opposition, educating the public through questions and lack of answers that the Conservatives are incompetent managers of the economy and the government and government spending in particular.
Is it politics? Of course. Is it a political game? I think a smart politician realizes there is a political and democratic reality in what they do. The Canadian public, through election after election and poll after poll, has demonstrated that it has not given up on and trusts Harper more than any alternative. That is a reality.
That is a reality because we’ve had 3-4 years of effective, media-supported, well-financed Conservative marketing and branding, coupled 3 years of ineffective, lurching, financially bankrupt opposition (from all three parties).
The Conservative budget completely left out livestock producers. Why? We don’t know and the media isn’t asking. The Liberals noticed this and are asking.
I think the drip, drip, drip of asking questions over and over and over, is showing Canadians bit by bit that this government has had its day.
JSRothwell: We have to face the reality that the coalition is a myth. There was a moment, a brief moment, in December when it might have possibly forced an election which would no doubt have returned a Harper majority. Since then, other than a threat that has driven up fundraising dollars for the Conservatives and forced them to finally do something for Canadians (as little as that was) in the budget, it is a fantasy.
Under no realistic scenario was there ever going to be a coalition government without another election first.
Harper and the Conservatives still speak in terms of a “coalition” being out there because they know that works to their fundraising and electoral advantage. Some Liberals still speak in terms of a “coalition” having been a possibility either because they so dislike Ignatieff and want to pretend there was an alternative to the Conservatives ready to take over or they simply lust too strongly for grabbing power back without facing the electorate.
But there was no way the GG was or is ever going to put this economically struggling country into a political, regional and constitutional crisis by appointing the government without an election.
I understand what you’re saying RT, but, I think they are pointing out what is missing in the budget, even though they are going to support it to get monies flowing.
A coalition would get things done? With Layton involved? I don’t think so. He’d start playing his games.
Harper is more than financially capable of having another election – the others aren’t. GG would side with Harper I suspect – I read where GG and Loreen have become very close friends – go hiking together and their daughters are in the same dance classes – looks really bad to me.
Is it not true that Bob Rae tried to spend his way out of a recession in the early 90’s? And has he not taken his lumps for that over the years?
So when economic crisis strikes again, let’s do the same thing and see if we come up with a different result.
Ted — That’s a fair explanation. Maybe I’m thick, but I would like to have had the Liberals set out their approach in similar terms. i.e., “We will support this budget, but don’t think for a moment that means you get a free ride. We’re going to set out in detail everything that we see as being flawed, incomplete or maleficent and we’ll be working tirelessly in committee and in parliament (on the beaches, etc.) to hold the government accountable, blah, blah blah.”
O/T, but interesting. We’ll have to keep an eye on where Harper and gang are during this time frame.
Bush to give speech at private event in Canada
11:12 PM CST on Wednesday, February 11, 2009
By LORI STAHL / The Dallas Morning News
lstahl@dallasnews.com
Former President George W. Bush’s first confirmed speaking engagement since leaving office will take him from Crawford to Canada.
Invitations to the event, billed as “a conversation with George W. Bush,” say that the former president will “share his thoughts on his eight momentous years in the Oval Office” during a March 17 speech in Calgary, Alberta.
The event is not open to the public, and organizers declined to say whether Bush will be paid a fee. A spokesman for the newly formed Bush presidential office in Dallas declined to comment.
There’s a fine line between letting the CPC wear this POS budget and letting the LPC get equally spattered. This is there little nugget, the LPC has contributed nothing to it. When it fails to jump start the economy, as it will, it will still be their budget. I think Iggy is taking alot of flak for smart politics. Talk of integrity and working for the good of the country is all well and good until you realize that the majority of Canadians could care less about something as insignificant as good policy. The Liberals can only bring significantly better ideas to the Hill if they’re in government.
Ahem, their.
No problem Ted,
If you look at the blossoming relation between the GG and Laureen Harpoon the PM influence there is just dodgy.
I also think if we had an election and one of those Layton ads had gotten out during it we’d be facing a mess that would keep those Cons smiling from their crypts for years to come. Imagine having to answer why one of your leaders has created secret ads during an election? We’d be lucky to get a pyrrhic victory out of that.
If I had the slightest belief that such a thing actually existed, I’d be most interested to see the alternative budget that was allegedly drafted over the last month or so…
“This is their little nugget, the LPC has contributed nothing to it. When it fails to jump start the economy, as it will, it will still be their budget. ”
But we will all remember that this was forced upon the conservatives because of the coalition and that it passed in the house because of the Liberals.
Navvy, you admit that it will not jump start the economy but that’s okay, at least it won’t hurt the LPC. Good for Canada? Nope, good for the LPC.
Thanks for my making my point.
But we will all remember that this was forced upon the conservatives
yeah with a rhetorical gun to Harper’s head. If that’s what it takes to get the Pork Arse the Lesser (now that Duffy is around) to do anything, then he is definitely the wrong person to be in charge.
Playing games, being forced to do their jobs (albeit shitty), cooking, baking and boiling numbers: how is this good for Canada and how is the CPC going to scapegoat their way out of this one?
jsrothwell, the gun to his head comment is exactly my point. Maybe Harper was trying to not repeat past mistakes a la Bob Rae.
Maybe he was thinking, wait now, let’s try something different. Let’s be cautious with taxpayers dollars, let’s see where this is going before we return to massive deficits.
Well, he was forced with the so called “rhetorical gun to his head” and now you can’t wait to blame him when it fails.
And I ask again, how is this good for Canada?
It seems that the Connies and Liberals resemble each other more with each passing day….
The Liberals can only bring significantly better ideas to the Hill if they’re in government.
Did they not contribute to this budget? What about all the consultations?
Here is the point that we should all focus on:
Here, we simply ask: Why did the Liberals support this budget?
If this budget is so deeply flawed, they had a chance to contribute/change/upgrade and even take down the government over it.
Instead they are trying to look good and PMish –
This recession/depression is one of the worst ever seen and all Iggy could do was play politics…
Maybe he was thinking, wait now, let’s try something different. Let’s be cautious with taxpayers dollars, let’s see where this is going before we return to massive deficits.
That’s being optimistic. I think it was more like
How can I save my skin? How can I get a majority out of this? How can I crush my opponents? What new and fancy ways can I smear people who have spited me? How can I use the poor fortunes of Canadians as an excuse for some hardcore wingnut policies?
As long as Harper is in the PM office it’s bad for Canada. So we do disagree. I see it as Harper’s fault because he’s the PM and as the PM he needs to accept blame and responsibility for a change.
Dont make excuses for Harper like he’s innocent. He isn’t and was forced to do something beside being a dick. His alternatives would have been way worse (nothing & waiting far too late come to mind).
CWTF : Iggy could do was play politics…
and Layton isnt? Please take off the orange tinged glasses. Layton loves the games just as much
jsrothwell : They all played politics.
Except that it is rather hypocritical of Iggy and the Liberals to be criticizing this budget that the *ahem have supposedly examined and approve of…
Layton, at lest, is justified if he finds fault with it.
Iggy the anointed and his coterie, not so much….
sure sure… I’m sure that Everyman Layton can do no wrong, he walks on water and is mightier than all of us.
Yes, jsrothwell, we disagree. I am against this budget because it is way too expensive. I would have preferred that less was done. You disagree.
I would have preferred that we not spend ourselves into oblivion right off the top and we wait to see where this would lead. I once took a survival course, they told us…if you have food, don’t eat it. Wait until you must, who knows when you’ll be rescued.
So now we have this huge spending budget and you, on one hand, feel you had to hold the gun to his head, and on the other, it’s not going to work and we can blame Harper. You say I’m being optimistic and you think his thought process was different. But we can take your remarks and apply them to Iggy…let me try
How can I save my skin? If Iggy doesn’t produce more votes than Dion, will he not be looking for ways to save his skin?
How can I get a majority out this? How can Iggy win the next election out of this?
How can I crush my opponents out of this? Well, please don’t tell me that Iggy doesn’t fantasize about throwing Jack and Gilles under the bus.
At the end of the day I think we can all agree this budget is not good for Canada. Whichever party comes out of this at the end less tarnished is irrelevant, it’s Canadians who will suffer.
So I agree with RT, why did they allow this budget to pass?
“As it is now, this drip, drip, drip of questions about why the Conservatives didn’t include this, that or the other thing seems like nothing but political gamesmanship”
RT, I think you just answered your own question on amendments, and why they chose to omit any request from the final budget position. Once you add one amendment, then you’re pressured to add another one, then another one, then another one, to the point of owning the budget. I wanted them to move on EI and a couple other amendments, but you can see why they hesitated, because it would have created a never ending parade. This is the Conservatives budget, and the role of the Liberals is too differentiate how we would approch things. Now in a purist sense, we should push on everything, and accept no less. I would ask anyone to cite one example in recent history, wherein purity has been on display, with no other consideration. I don’t know we are forever disgusted with a reality, that is a by-product of human nature and a system were parties necessarily “compete”. The Liberals made the government move, this budget is a better document than it would have been, had it not been for the opposition pushing the Conservatives. That’s about as good as it gets, to actually assume the full monty is achievable, given the competing considerations, just isn’t realistic. Get back in power, then it’s our responsibility…
No matter who replaces (or even if Harper runs again), the Connies will not win the next elections because of the economy.
Sure Layton is an ass. But at least he’s earned the right to criticizes this budget.
Iggy was out playing politics – and not thinking about what is best for Canada.
Get back in power, then it’s our responsibility…
And to think that we mock the Conservatives for such statements….
CWTF
Need a refresher on “opposition” and “government”? This stuff just kills me…
Sure Layton is an ass. But at least he’s earned the right to criticizes this budget.
By being an ass? Or maybe smug?
“But at least he’s earned the right to criticizes this budget.”
Was that before, or after he actually saw it? Now that’s a principled stand if I ever saw one, no politics there, nope, nada, zip. It boggles the mind.
Steve — You and others have raised quite valid objections to my admittedly tiresome complaint, so maybe I should re-state my grievance accordingly.
What bothers me about the tactics being used by the Liberals is that they’re quite “small-bore” in nature and, at least from my perspective as a somewhat studious observer of such things, highly annoying. In fact, the other day, I unsubscribed from the Liberal YouTube channel because I was just so damn tired of being bombarded by these pointless little snippets from Question Period. Dish up the whole exchange or just don’t even bother.
What I’d like to see is a broader, more over-arching critique of the budget and Conservative position made with… dare I hope… an ALTERNATE VISION of how the Liberals would be running things if they were the government.
Yes, the endless sniping, carping, moaning, and chipping away at the budget is all well and good and it’s certainly what the Opposition should be doing (I guess), but I fear the Liberals are putting themselves in a rather untenable position of wanting their cake, eating it too and then complaining bitterly afterwards about how it wasn’t sufficiently filling (or too sweet, fattening, or whatever metaphor you’d prefer as appropriate).
On that Liberal YouTube channel (seeing as our corporate media here is so incredibly fucking lame and totally useless for the most part) why not have a spokesman just summarize the proceedings for us, highlighting the key points (maybe with some clips from QP for dramatic effect).
Look, we’re busy people with tons of shit to do every day… far better things than be ANNOYED constantly by the pestering, browbeating and phony outrage of Liberal MPs getting on their haunches to berate the government over this or that (which they, sorry to say — in effect supported!). Instead, why not just tell us where the Liberals stand on the key issues of the day and where (in their opinion) the government is coming from… why they feel they’re right and they’re wrong, and so on.
Yes, I’m a naïve dreamer perhaps, but I just have neither the time nor the patience for this shit if it’s all just a meaningless pantomime or a hollow charade intended to convince viewers that the Liberals are somehow relevant and not just complicit enablers of Stephen Harper and his hopeless band of neolithic fuckwits.
SteveV,
What kills me is someone saying that Iggy will be able to keep the PM in line… How exactly? Don’t know but you seem to think that Iggystein is great…
When you talk about “principled stand” it’s rather ironic.
It was largely predicted that Iggy would support it. Low and behold, he did. I’m quite certain that he did not read it, if he did (not fucking likely) why point out the the lacks now?
It was also predicted that Iggy would not support the coalition.
There is nothing more annoying than a politician that lies, lies and lies.
It’s a given that Harper will loose the next election and that even a head of cabbage as the head of the Liberals will win…
The Liberal party had a chance to work for Canadians, instead the “braintrust” de
What is mind boggling is that some will support the brand “Liberal” without noticing the glaring hypocrisy, crass pretzel logic and stupidity that was once the main domain of the Conservative supporters….
As much as we’d like to paint it a “Conservative” budget, the Liberals own much of it.
sigh
The Liberal party had a chance to work for Canadians, instead the “braintrust” decided to work for the Liberal party first.
Why did the Liberals support this budget?
Because Mr. Ignatieff realized that governments cannot influence recessions. They cannot prevent them. They cannot have any impact on their duration or severity. Hell, they cannot even mitigate their impacts on the poor citizens enduring them. All of these stimulus packages are not going to accomplish anything but drown the various government creating them in red ink.
With that in mind, it makes perfect sense to let the Conservatives deal with that reality and let them take the political heat for it.
Is it putting politics over country? Only if you believe things would be different under the Liberals or a Liberal lead coalition, which to me is a delusion of biblical proportions. I find too many of the Liberals who have protested Mr. Ignatieff’s decision believe too much in the Liberal Party’s propaganda of being economic miracle workers. After all, they slayed the deficit. Of course, what they forget is they did so when the economy was booming. I have no doubt that with the economy tanking, with the prospects of it getting worse before it gets better, the Liberals would be just as helpless to mitigate the duration, severity and impact of this recession as the Conservatives.
Nothing would have been accomplished by not supporting the budget.
“What I’d like to see is a broader, more over-arching critique of the budget and Conservative position made with… dare I hope… an ALTERNATE VISION of how the Liberals would be running things if they were the government.”
For us political animals that is certainly a strong desire, not just of the Liberals but from all parties.
However, for those who do not live and breath politics the meanderings of the Leader of the Opposition is about as interesting watching paint dry.
No one really cares what he says and during those times when a Leader of the Opposition actually puts forward alternatives it becomes a target. Witness the Green Shift.
All of the effective oppositions in this country have done exactly what the Liberals are doing now. Keep the focus on the failings of the government, no matter how trivial they might be. Any one of the issues they decide to focus on will be ignored but the overall theme of government incompetence will begin to sink in.
It is infuriating for us political animals but we are not their target audience. For the most part we have already made up our minds. All parties are trying to influence the broader electorate, who can still be swayed.
Ottlib — Because Mr. Ignatieff realized that governments cannot influence recessions. They cannot prevent them. They cannot have any impact on their duration or severity. Hell, they cannot even mitigate their impacts on the poor citizens enduring them. All of these stimulus packages are not going to accomplish anything but drown the various government creating them in red ink.
I would disagree with this assessment for various reasons. Obviously government can exercise its influence over the economy in many different ways. To unequivocally state that it has no power whatsoever to impact the economy is a ridiculous assertion by any measure.
That said, it’s also absurd to presume that government alone can solve the problem. It will take the mutual co-operation of the “free” markets working in concert with governments around the world in order to turn this situation around. I think that was kind of what Gheitner was alluding to the other day with his “non-plan”…
All of the effective oppositions in this country have done exactly what the Liberals are doing now. Keep the focus on the failings of the government, no matter how trivial they might be. Any one of the issues they decide to focus on will be ignored but the overall theme of government incompetence will begin to sink in.
Yep. You’re indubitably correct. Sad but true, as they say. It would be nice to see things elevated to a higher, more informative level of discourse, but that’s not likely to happen.
Instead we’ll be stuck with untold months of the drip, drip, drip of bitter whining, carping, moaning, and futile complaining. Oh goody.
And people wonder why politics is such a turn-off.
Kat: So I agree with RT, why did they allow this budget to pass?
Well to be truly and fully cynical, they allowed it to pass because they want to see the Cons writhe on their own sword.
And looking at it from a fully partisan viewpoint, after the way the Cons behaved with Dion, what do you expect? Care Bears and Roses?
Conbot land must be a mystic land full of rainbows and unicorns
Why did the Liberals support this budget?
Because Mr. Ignatieff realized that governments cannot influence recessions. They cannot prevent them. They cannot have any impact on their duration or severity. Hell, they cannot even mitigate their impacts on the poor citizens enduring them. All of these stimulus packages are not going to accomplish anything but drown the various government creating them in red ink.
Scratch and Ottlib an you get a Libertarian… who knew…
I have to disagree with you pronouncements. Ideally there would be less government but in the world that we live in that is not the case.
If you really thing that Ignatieff realized your statement, that makes him a bigger hypocrite that at first…
I do agree that these “stimulus” packages are mostly self-serving. Looking to our US neighbours, it does seem that Obama is trying to do something about that (with the limiting of salaries to 500 000$, no word on stock options…)
What you are saying is rather cynical – politicians will whore themselves completely for power…
No wonder the BQ is looking better all the time…
Yup, let’s just spend another $300 to $400 million on another election.
Anyone really want to be in a coalition with Layton when his idiots bring out a Con/Lib coalition cake to the foyer of the House? Singing with too, I believe. Reminds of Pat Martin and his puppets.
NDP need a new leader – fast.
Anyone really want to be in a coalition with Layton when his idiots bring out a Con/Lib coalition cake to the foyer of the House?
If the shoe fits….
What RuralSandi you don’t want another 3 months without a government because of yet another election?
Then we’d have to listen to the self-righteousness of CWTF all the time 🙂
I think it’s safe to say that almost nobody wanted another election in the middle of winter. Maybe next October… By then, I’m sure we’ll be well on the road to recovery. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Then we’d have to listen to the self-righteousness of CWTF all the time
It’s so damn hard being right all the time… ;>