Stupid 4Ever

It’s quite unfathomable to me why anyone claiming to be a “liberal” (let alone a “Liberal 4ever”) would so vigorously defend a truly wretched political nightmare like Sarah Palin, yet such is the case with the painfully illiterate fellow who natters on ungrammatically at this desperately mirthless, largely unreadable blog, not infrequently extolling with evident passion the supposed virtues of the Alaska Governor and cheering on John McCain in his bid for the presidency for some entirely mysterious reason that seems to defy any reasonable explanation.

At the risk of trying the patience of readers, let’s have a closer look-see at one of his recent posts, shall we? It’s entitled “Hypocrisy?” for reasons that are never made altogether clear, and it starts off this way:

This is my personal observation on the Palin issue especially, when the press in Canada went after Dion’s personality, his English, his green shift, been a tax plan, so on, the blog on the left was up in arms, ctv was attacked, even the cbc, according to them they where helping harper get elected.

Okay, so immediately it’s fairly obvious that we’re not dealing with an essayist of the finest caliber here. Why it needs to be stated on a blog that something is a “personal observation” seems to be more than a little redundant. Next, one presumes that the writer meant “being a tax plan” rather than “been a tax plan” but that would be quibbling, I suppose. I mean, after all, who amongst us writes, publishes and actually edits themselves? Aren’t we just supposed to blurt out the first thing that pops into our evil noggin and dash it down with the utmost speed and haste, never looking back to even bother seeing whether it makes sense or not? As for subsequent corrections… forget about it!

Similarly, we’re not entirely sure what “the blog on the left” is. Does this refer to some nefarious, leftist, Borg-like entity (“The Blog”), or is it simply a case of a carelessly neglected “s” that would have made it plural, as in “the blogs on the left” — which is also problematic, come to think about it, being a rather sweeping and wholly imprecise generalization.

While there were definitely a number of Liberal bloggers who got exercised about the supposed “bias” of the corporate media (CTV/Global most especially) I’m not sure how entirely seriously this should be taken. Certainly there was a great deal of negativity about the Liberal campaign, even from more usually sympathetic outlets like the Toronto Star and it did seem like a bit of a savage dog-pile at times, but that’s perhaps not altogether unexpected behaviour under the circumstances — it was, after all, a weak and ineffectual effort by the Liberals fronted by a man not well suited to retail politics.

Moving on…

Now that the main stream media in America is doing the same thing to Palin, does the left come to her defense, and say she has the right to be who she wants to be, no. It is OK and even quoted in some blogs.

Funny, but I always thought “mainstream” was all one word. Go figure. One wonders why the more familiar acronym “MSM” wasn’t simply employed as brevity and intellectual sloth seem to be operative hallmarks of the writer. Drawing a connection between the way Dion was treated by the press corps here in Canada and the handling of Palin by the media during the presidential race seems like a bit of stretch, but never mind that for now. How this boils down to a matter of self-actualization (“the right to be who she wants to be”) though is something of profound mystery that perhaps only “Liberal 4ever” can properly expand on in the fullness of time.

By the way, just reverting back to the lazy knock against the “main stream media,” it’s maybe worth remembering that the most vociferous and immediate reaction to Palin’s nomination actually came not from the MSM, but from the left-wing blogging community who, in amazing short order, demonstrated their stunned outrage at someone so manifestly unqualified and ideologically horrific in almost every conceivable respect being added to the McCain ticket for the transparently obvious and entirely cynical reason of shoring up support from the absolute lowest common denominator of the GOP’s base — a group that had, by and large up to that time, still remained thoroughly lukewarm to the “maverick” from Arizona for all sorts of reasons.

I have seen the word now floating around, that Palin is an embarrassment, nothing about her achievements in Alaska, the populist policies that makes her the most popular governor in America.

In fact, this simply isn’t true. It was widely reported as part of her potted biography when Palin was first nominated that she was “the most popular Governor in America” and consequently this is well known (quite aside from being frequently repeated by Sen. McCain at every opportunity). And it’s not actually that hard to say why either. She does have a very compelling back story in many respects… something that was also extensively and quite favorably reported on in the press, at least initially — how she went from being an “average hockey mom” and small town mayor, to take on the corrupt powers that be within her own party in Alaska, etc.

But it’s when you start looking beyond those simple, folksy biographical tales that things start to get pretty dodgy and the left-wing blogs were all over this right from the outset. The various shenanigans and blunders with regards to her administration in Wasilla, the threatened book-banning, the intimidation of local officials, the imposition of religious-inspired policies with regards to birth control, her advocacy of creationism, her strange involvement with a kooky, fundamentalist Christian sect (being blessed by a witch doctor, for example), the tawdry “Troopergate” mess, her pronouncements on the Iraq War and natural gas pipeline construction both being of divine inspiration, her incurious views on foreign affairs, her dismissal of AGW, her fondness for shooting wolves from helicopters, her association with Alaskan separatists, and so on and so forth.

This reminded me of the 1993 campaign here in Canada when the same attitude was promoted by the Campbell camp in a commercial, describing J. Chretien as an embarrassment.

Completely different. That was based solely on the man’s physical attributes, which is why people immediately found the attack reprehensible and intolerable (not to mention that the fact that Chrétien’s facial deformity that was the “embarrassing” target of the ad was actually caused by Bell’s palsy). No, quite to the contrary, I don’t imagine anyone would dispute the fact that in purely physical, entirely superficial terms, Palin is a very appealing candidate — indeed, I suspect for no small number of men that comprises a great deal of the attraction. Would there have been such rabid passion for Kay Bailey Hutchison? I rather doubt it.

The withering and sometimes vicious criticism that’s been leveled against Palin in terms of being an “embarrassment” (that particular term, by the way comes from none other than Christopher Buckley, son of WFB, echoing the sentiment of his National Review colleague, “the superb and very dishy” Kathleen Parker) runs much deeper than that… conceivably venturing into the whole debasement of the Republican Party in recent years and the crisis of conservatism at the present time (something best left for another discussion down the road). But speaking of which, David Brooks (a conservative columnist for the NYT) even called her “a cancer on the Republican Party.” I merely point that out to show that this isn’t simply a matter of all the attacks coming from the “left” by any means. Such a characterization is dead wrong and entirely misleading.

What about the feminist movement, I thought the fight for women’s rights, was for her to choose the path she wants, without been ridiculed for it?

This may be the writer’s understanding of “feminism” but it certainly isn’t mine. Not that I’m all that attuned to “feminism” it has to be admitted. Certainly it goes without saying that women should have the rights and freedoms to enjoy all of the same opportunities in life that men do, but at the same time that doesn’t give them some special exemption simply because of their gender. What a curious double-standard. Also, with respect to “feminism” it should be noted that Palin adamantly does not support a women’s right to self-determination vis-à-vis reproductive rights, so that kind of undermines the whole “feminism” angle of things, doesn’t it?

What if ACORN was an organization leaning for the right, instead of bho, good grief, the left would be up in arms.

Just FYI, I’m not pulling these extracts out of context. They seem random and disordered because that’s exactly the way they were originally written down — pretty much a “stream of consciousness” thing I guess.

Does anyone on “the left” have a problem with any “irregularities” perpetrated by or in the name of ACORN being investigated and dealt with according to the provisions of the law? From what I know of the situation it’s not all that difficult to understand how this situation arose and I don’t think it seems to be a case of systemic and deliberate “voter fraud” but if indeed that’s the case, then prosecute them. As discussed at great and wearisome length on another thread here, these matters should all be dealt with fairly and judiciously regardless of the political leanings or affiliations of the groups in question. Better yet, just overhaul and clean up the whole system, which currently is a balkanized, shambolic clusterfuck that one might expect to see in a third-world country, not the good old US of A.

Anyway, you know where I am going, I really expected that the left would respect and defend her right to be who she is, that the criticism would be concentrated on her policies and views, but the only thing I see is the same personal attacks, that the left have complained about against the right, in other words, everybody does it, and if they do it, we will do it, where is the high road in all this?

Again with the “self-actualization” thing… Urgh. What is that, three times now in one post? I think we get the point, but unfortunately, it’s frivolous and entirely irrelevant. Most certainly we can concentrate on her policies and views: would you like to start at “A” or “Z” or something in between, because I can assure you that they’re all dead wrong, poorly conceived, badly formulated, and essentially nothing but a bunch of half-baked lies, boilerplate right-wing talking points and kooky, God-bothering nonsense. Funny thing, but I don’t see this self-described “Liberal4ever” actually advancing any of these wonderful “policies and views” that so impress him when it comes to Palin. I guess it’s easier to just pretend that she’s something more than a vacuous mediocrity with a winning smile and a bit of folksy charm.

We centrist, who I believe represents the true political path of this nation, are the only ones who are disgusted by this behavior. Centrist criticize policies and try to keep away from personal attacks, I have been critical of bho’s policies and his associations, but never attacked him personally, I think B. O’Reilley said it best, you know where this guy is, no problem, I just don’t agree with his views. I am not a fancy speaker, but I hope my point is been made.

Need to take a deep breath after that one.

Well, you “centrist” and floundering, non-fancy speaker, you appear to be rather confused. As noted previously, the criticisms against Palin are coming from all directions, including from moderate centrists and no small number of conservatives, in addition to the preponderance of “average” voters according to the most recent polls, so whatever your own personal views may be about that what you presume to be the “true political path of this nation” it really has no bearing at all when it comes to whether it’s reasonable for an unqualified, thoroughly meretricious hack like Sarah Palin to be a “hearbeat” away from the presidency in the unlikely event that John McCain gets the nod from the American people next week.

Update:
If anyone is remotely interested, a “rebuttal” of sorts is provided by “Liberal4Ever” on his blog here. It’s really not my intention to get into a flaming contest with this individual as I suspect such an endevour would be supremely futile and a complete waste of time/effort.

102 Replies to “Stupid 4Ever”

  1. L4E starts off his next blog post with:

    “In my opinions, I research what I think, to make sure that all opinions are represented”

    ?????? That was as far as I got. Priceless.

  2. The “left” should come to her defense???

    Hey, take a look at his header……guaranty….spelling error even in the header.

    Sure she has the right to be what she wants to be….but a little world knowledge and smarts might help.

    Feminists – she’d put women back 100 years.

    …sigh…..

    This guy has been obsessed with Obama hating from the start. He was for Hillary I believe, but hey, Palin is no comparison when it comes to smarts and general world knowledge.

  3. Yes, I believe he was extremely pro-Hillary back during the primaries, but more than that seems to be quite firmly anti-Obama than anything else. Referring to him as “bho” is kind of a dead give away as to where he’s coming from in that regard.

    Not quite 50… yet, but then quite a few less than bright people seem to mistake me for my avatar. 😉

  4. i believe that lib4ever is actually hunter, the sweetheart of the bloggingtories, in blog drag.

  5. lol…..I admit I don’t agree with your bashing and one sided opinions, buuuut, I have “never” used your name to promote my blog, so be it…… Bring it on….

  6. Oh no! You’re in trouble now Red. Lib4evr, with a George Bush style “bring it on”, has decided to turn that keen intellect against you. Maybe you should give him an apology.

  7. Red, My comments don’t seem to be getting posted. If you are just moderating please disregard this message.

  8. His support for McCain/Palin, and status as a “Liblogger” are inexplicable.

    Obama’s tax plan would at most take American tax policy back to where it was in the 1990s under Bill Clinton (those dirty socialist years); yet even our “conservative” party here in Canada would never dare propose matching that level of taxation (due to the level of cuts in spending that would require).

    Frankly I think anyone who harps on Obama’s middle name (as L4ever does by calling him “b.h.o.”) has another agenda.

  9. Militant Liberal — Your comments were getting tagged as “Spam” for some reason. Sorry about that. It wasn’t intentional. I don’t deliberately moderate, but sometimes WordPress is funny that way.

  10. Liberal 4evr — I don’t see what blog promotion has to do with anything.

    So why don’t you edify me with what is superior about the “policies and views” of McCain-Palin as opposed to their Democratic opponents.

    I’m highly curious to know.

  11. L4E: I don’t always agree with Hitchens, but he sure makes the case clear against McCain, and he is particularly clear on Palin:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2203120/

    The woman is the best thing to have happened to the Dems in at least a decade, if not more. She’s an idiot, and she’s loved by all of the vacuous morons on the right. Please please please continue to run her.

  12. Not that I didn’t enjoy reading that – I did – but isn’t this the epitome of beating up a straw man?

  13. KC,

    Even more inexplicable considering a fair amount of sensible Tories (RA, Lore Weaver, Olaf etc) support Obama as well.

  14. RT,

    I actually made a similar (if far less thorough) post chiding a highly illogical Liberal blogger who had a similar penchant for illiteracy. Until I came to the conclusion that the other individual may simply be an ESL student (seriously), and I felt bad for potentially discouraging a new Canadian from taking part in Canadian political discourse. My point is, as usual, that I’m a compassionate conservative and you’re a cold hearted Liberal elitist. I hope you’re proud of yourself, RT.

  15. “It’s really not my intention to get into a flaming contest with this individual”

    that’s my job.

    douche4ever is as perpetually liberal as i am conservative. his week-old “blog” is a complete fabrication.

    they lie every chance they get, even when they don’t have to….

    KEvron

  16. “RT, you’ve given this guy some undeserved attention.

    Focus elsewhere.”

    hey! you don’t mind if rt throws me a friggin’ bone every now and then, do you?! find another thread, killjoy.

    KEvron

  17. Olaf — Yep, that would be me — just another “cold-hearted Liberal elitist”…

    I invited him to post something en français so we can put this little theory to the test.

    Quite frankly, I could care less about his opinions, but I do rather deeply resent the fact that he will quite glibly allow libelous personal statements (beyond “he’s a douchebag” sort of things) to stand as “opinion” on his site.

    Oh well. When I get my finances in order in the next month or so, I’ll be filing a libel suit against him and will make him pay very dearly for his reckless insouciance in this regard.

  18. KEv — No, in fact, this fellow is something of a fixture amongst Liberal bloggers and is not just some kind of an overnight sensation. What irks me is that he seems more than willing to provide a safe haven for a wretched little band of malicious “anonymous” trolls that are bound and determined to launch entirely personal attacks against me.

  19. RC — LOL. Busted!

    Speaking of which, as a sometimes admirer of the notion of “enlightened monarchy” and “benign dictatorship” it’s always kind of amused me that the Prussian King Frederick William II (aka “Frederick the Great”), who was perhaps the most notable exemplar of that idea, named his opulent 18th century neo-classical palace in Berlin “San Souci” (“Without Care”). That’s just so wonderfully perverse on many levels, especially when considering that he was being attacked, quite literally, from all sides for the better part of a decade.

  20. “I’ll be filing a libel suit against him”

    i’ll back your play. be fun to get this/these clown(s) to pay up. i expect, of course, a return on my investment….

    for now, sitemeter gave me these two canadian ip#s (incomplete), both after i had commended 4f4evr’s sainted mother:
    24.84.46.xxx, vancouver
    24.150.49.xxx, welland

    cross reference them to your trolls. or shit can ’em. whatever floats.

    KEvron

  21. Oh, not to worry… I’ve got the trolls pegged (WordPress is quite good for that, amongst other things.)

    And any benefits from legal proceedings will be happily shared — it’s not a matter of money, but principle, after all.

  22. “KEv — No, in fact, this fellow is something of a fixture amongst Liberal bloggers and is not just some kind of an overnight sensation.”

    ah. i was judging by his non-existant archives. also, the days of l(?)w have made me leery. he’s certainly got the disposition for a wingnut.

    sue his ass. and share the adventure with us.

    KEvron

  23. KEv — D’oh! Yes, of course.

    Sheesh, I hate it when I do that. Like “there” and “their”…

    Sometimes, I too, type faster than I think. 😉

  24. RT,

    Elitist!!! Libel chill!!! And so on!!!

    Just to satisfy my curiosity, are you planning on accusing the author (Liberal4Ever) of libel personally, or just for allowing libelous statements on his blog?

  25. One thing is clear from all of this at least. RT, I don’t think I’ve ever seen you take so much time and effort to find a balance with someone in blogland. You’ve given him enough chances. I just can’t get over the fact that he is unable to understand your complaint.

    Also, sometime in the last year, there was word about bloggers being responsible not just for content but for comments left by others. L4E isn’t doing himself any favours by ignoring this matter.

    Anyway, I’ll watch for the fundraising drive for the legal fund. This sort of thing is really unethical and pollutes the writing done by good bloggers.

    Last point, I really enjoy your blog. I learn a lot, from all sides (Liberal, Conservative, etc.) and I appreciate that. Thanks for the excellent videos etc. Keep it up please.

  26. Clearly, this guy only barely speaks english. Doesn’t seem quite fair to pick on him.

    Then again, judging from some of the garbage he tolerates in his comments section, I wouldn’t fault you if you do.

  27. “Clearly, this guy only barely speaks english. Doesn’t seem quite fair to pick on him.”

    the same could be said of you, but that never stopped me.

    KEvron

  28. Maybe he’s trying to punk me at Liberal 4 Life, I dunno.

    I’m not fallin for it, that guy should be on Blogging Tories with the rest of the regressives.

  29. the same could be said of you, but that never stopped me.

    ROTFL

    That distinctly amuses me. Clearly, you have no idea regarding your place in the big scheme of things.

    As a matter of fact, I’m reminded of how I started deleting your comments from my blog on account of them being a tremendous waste of space.

    Not too much unlike yourself, but what the hey. I guess even insufferable ignorami need hobbies too.

  30. “That distinctly amuses me.”

    we wouldn’t want any ambiguous amusement, now, would we?

    “Clearly, you have no idea regarding your place in the big scheme of things.”

    will you say a good word for me when the reptilian overlords descend? yer a pal.

    “As a matter of fact, I’m reminded of how I started deleting your comments from my blog on account of them being a tremendous waste of space.”

    and i’ve been devasted ever since.

    “Not too much unlike yourself, but what the hey.”

    my ma says i’m a catch.

    “I guess even insufferable ignorami need hobbies too.”

    that’s why god invented chess.

    KEvron

  31. Olaf — It’s certainly not my intent to cast any degree of “libel chill” around, but I think there are some “bright lines” as they say in the law when it comes to what is acceptable opinion and fair comment (as ludicrous, harsh and insulting as that can be at times) and posting what are blatant untruths about someone on a personal basis.

    To answer your question, I will have to consult on the matter (possibly next week as time allows… I’m kind of busy with moving and such at the moment), but I’d expect to be going after him as “hosting” libelous commentary and willfully refusing to take it down after repeated requests to do so, and therefore being essentially complicit in the libel.

  32. L4E isn’t doing himself any favours by ignoring this matter.

    No, he isn’t.

    If anonymous really felt there was something behind his comments, he’d put a name behind it instead of hiding behind the anonymous handle.

  33. PR — I don’t know quite how to respond to your comment given our rather tangled and wholly antagonistic relationship in the past — it wasn’t really my intent to “pick on him” (although I certainly did so in this instance, and in a rather mean-spirited way, I’ll admit) and I probably wouldn’t have bothered but for the fact of him providing a safe haven for “anonymous” flying monkeys that seem to delight in bad-mouthing me by name for completely inane reasons and just LYING their asses off about personal details of my life.

    You and I… well, that’s a fair fight and I think we both know where to draw the lines — I suspect however that you might get more than a little irked if I started trashing your Mum and Dad and inventing stories about them (or you, for that matter). Call me old-fashioned or whatever, but that sort of thing just seems entirely out of bounds.

  34. Can we get back to Mother Sarah?

    The best thing of all is that she now owns the Republican Party. It’s like Stephen croaks — God Forbid! — and Maxine arises as a sort of 21st Century Kim Campbell who immediately calls a snap.

  35. “I suspect however that you might get more than a little irked if I started trashing your Mum and Dad and inventing stories about them”

    i’ve been operating under the assumption that pat killed them….

    KEvron

  36. “The best thing of all is that she now owns the Republican Party.”

    i know you’re being funny, but she most certainly is taking the opportunity, while the campaign is imploding, to position herself in the party’s future (for lack of a better word – the woman’s the champion of retrogression).

    KEvron

  37. “Such a kidder…”

    and verging ever so closely on libel without actually making that nut! ain’t i a stinker?!

    KEvron

  38. The Seer — Yes, we shall return to normal programming shortly.

    But more to your point (which is actually a rather good one) — isn’t it sad how much his woman has come to dominate the GOP?

    I think part of the reason that many of the moderate Republican echelon of pundits and literati (what is it that Colbert calls them? — the “nerd pack” I think) are so chuffed is that they’ve been suddenly traduced by a completely moronic, vacuous idiot.

    I know there’s piles of delicious irony in that, but there just seems to be little satisfaction to be derived from the “Ha, ha!” moment right now.

  39. You and I… well, that’s a fair fight and I think we both know where to draw the lines — I suspect however that you might get more than a little irked if I started trashing your Mum and Dad and inventing stories about them (or you, for that matter). Call me old-fashioned or whatever, but that sort of thing just seems entirely out of bounds.

    I concur. Entirely. When you started blogging about your upcoming divorce, I knew someone was eventually going to pull some ridiculous bullshit like this.

    I can’t help but wonder if maybe this was something this Liberal4Ever guy was wanting to see drug out in the open and just didn’t want to do it himself. He sure doesn’t seem terribly bothered by it, and by my reckoning, more than a little pleased.

    As for other things, well, I doubt we’re ever going to be best buds. But if everyone waited until it was their friends being attacked in an entirely cowardly manner… I don’t think I’d want to live in that particular world.

    As for the whole Sarah Palin thing, I simply don’t have the time to separate the fact from the fiction in the public discourse. If there’s anything I’ve noticed about American elections, it’s that more and more fiction keeps getting sprinkled in with them, to the point where I simply don’t trust much of anything I can’t confirm from a reasonable source.

    Thomas Muthee, for example, is a guy I’d personally like to keep the hell away from any Church I’d even think about attending (that is, if I were a church-goer). But meeting a person once doesn’t nearly qualify as a “deep personal relationship”, as some people have suggested Palin and Muthee have.

    Not to mention the whole abortion issue. I know it’s not fashionable to talk like this around these parts, but I find some of Palin’s views regarding abortion and single-parenthood issues to be a good deal more progressive than their left-wing equivalents.

    Certainly not the whole “no abortion for my daughter even if she’s been raped” thing. That’s a little much. (Although I’d remind anyone that there’s a big difference between a personal belief and a political policy. We’d do much better to judge our leaders according to how well they can separate the two, as opposed to merely their personal beliefs.)

    In particular, her views on improving the availability of on-campus housing, day care services and pre- and post-natal health care for single mothers attending colleges and universities. If someone opposes abortion, one of the best things to do is to expand the number of options available to pregnant women. There would be way fewer abortions if a person can remove the causes of even the faintest traces of desperation from the factors influencing that decision.

    It’s actually a quite progressive approach to something generally only regarded as a problem by allegedly-regressive social conservative elements, and it kind of alarms me that so few people can recognize that.

    Then again, there is the whole “abstinence-only sex ed” thing. That won’t help anyone, and in the long term will likely only result in more unplanned pregnancies, and naturally more abortions.

    Long story short, I think John Oliver said it best on last night’s Daily Show when he compared the fear-driven pitches of partisans from each campaign and described them all as “scared shitless”.

    It all stems from a Presidential campaign where there’s more fiction than fact being offered up to the electorate. And really, what’s more fictional than Barack Obama allegedly being a Muslim?

  40. KEv — We all navigate some pretty fine lines when it comes to that sort of thing. I let a lot of comments go in the interest of “free expression” and have always refrained from moderating as much as possible, but at the end of the day there’s a certain degree of responsibility that must be assumed. That really was my point with this L4E person. Right off the bat Blogger allows administrators to block anonymous comments — he chose not to do that. Secondly, it allows admins to “moderate” incoming comments — he also chose not to do that. Which brings us to individual discretion — he actually made a decision to ALLOW libelous comments to stand on his blog, even when it was specifically asked of him that they be taken down.

    Fine. I’ll see him in court.

  41. RT,

    Fair enough. And of course, I was just throwing out the LIBEL CHILL!!! remark as a caricature of my people (its ok for me to do it, because some of my best friends are free speech fundamentalists!). If someone libels you, and it is upsetting to some degree, and you can prove it in a court, then I have no problem with it.

    Although if I were to venture an unsolicited and uninformed opinion (as someone who has never been publicly libeled outside of romantic relationships), I’d probably say it’s not worth your time. But I suppose you’d be the better judge of that.

  42. “I find some of Palin’s views regarding abortion and single-parenthood issues to be a good deal more progressive than their left-wing equivalents….

    In particular, her views on improving the availability of on-campus housing, day care services and pre- and post-natal health care for single mothers attending colleges and universities.”

    damn! if only some lefty had ever thought of those!

    you jackass.

    KEvron

  43. PR — Much bullshit, to be sure. I guess that’s the downside of blogging when you put your ideas “out there” in the public arena like a piñata for everyone to take a whack at. Which is fine… it’s not people attacking my half-baked ideas, notions and whimsical concepts of what should conceivably be that’s at issue — it’s the personal character assassination and LIES that I have some difficulty with.

    Maybe what’s to be learned here is that one should NEVER disclose anything remotely personal online because it will just be trashed, dragged through the mud and shit on with glee… all for some petty partisan political gain that at the end of the day doesn’t make a whit’s worth of difference. Wow. How fucking sad is that?

    And we wonder why so many people completely disengage themselves from politics and just walk away in disgust, filled with contempt and loathing at everything associated with it.

    I seem to recall a columnist for the British paper “The Observer” (I forget her name… a venerable old battleaxe and fixture over there) some time ago slagging the so-called “New Media” and telling Iain Dale in no uncertain terms there was no way on earth she’d ever subject herself to the shameful indignity of being rubbished by the filthy rabble. Well, I laughed at that when she said it, but I’m quite a bit more sympathetic to her POV these days.

  44. Olaf — No, you’re probably right about it not being worth my time, effort and expense. But you still have the glorious shield of hiding behind a pseudonym — something that, unfortunately, was quite rudely stripped away from me by certain persons a while back who felt it was IMPERATIVE that I be exposed as a “real” person.

    As such, I’m now forced to defend myself on an altogether different level. So… I either quit altogether, or I fight back whenever attacked, smeared and lied about.

  45. Fuck that guy Red! His anon buddy too. You made a herculean effort at engaging him in a civil discussion and at trying to get the point across that persons were publishing vicious untruths about you on his watch. My favorite part was how they seemed to believe you were so anti-American. You are way to pro American for my taste. But I really am a raging lefty. Lib4evr is getting way more attention then deserves and you are wasting your time even engaging him further.(except for the libel suit) He has no idea who he is or where he sits on the political spectrum. I assure you that even the bluest of Liberal does not support Sarah Palin. It’s a big tent but common.

  46. “It’s a big tent but common.” should read come on! oops I’m worse the him.

  47. I’m not familiar with the history of Liberal 4 Ever but unless there was something he did to do that was wrong, I see this as a little extreme. I’ve only done something similar to this once and that was to The Grumpy Voter because he called me names and deleted my comments when I pointed out he had misreported a story.
    -scott
    thescottross

  48. Okay nevermind. The bite wasn’t in the posts but in the comments section. This post is completely justified.
    -scott

  49. TML — Yeah, I know I sort of bent over backwards to be an attitudinal “liberal” in this respect and as accommodatingly nice as possible here (while admitting to being snarky and mean-spirited in some of my remarks about his posts), but at a certain point…enough is enough. I don’t know how many other folks would enjoy having their REAL names dragged through the mud online with made-up stories about their personal lives — wild fabrications as to why their spouse left them, for example and accusations of child-beating and so on.

  50. Shameless slander, I don’t blame you for being pissed. I’m pretty sure no one buys it though.On a completely unrelated topic, is it just urban myth or is the world headquarters of the Church of Satan in Victoria?

  51. damn! if only some lefty had ever thought of those!

    you jackass.

    If she’s promoting so many of the same ideas as “lefties”, then one wonders how seriously to take some of the lefties’ objections to her candidacy.

    Fucking dimwit.

  52. “then one wonders how seriously to take some of the lefties’ objections to her candidacy.”

    one must surely be a jackass….

    KEvron

  53. Red – quite the interesting flare-up that’s been eh….begun here. But I would advise against any kind of libel suit, for three reasons; the first being that you have allowed slanderous comments to be posted upon your own blog.

    Second, this anonymous asshole’s ( perhaps it’s plural by now ) comments, will not be more validated than by a lawsuit. It turns some little shit in his parents’ basement into someone who’s actually worth a lawsuit, as opposed to the slanderous little bugger that he actually is ( and yes, I’m perfectly aware that I’m defaming him in saying that ). While I am quite aware of how far across the line his words were, having read them myself, I just wouldn’t bother myself, unless of course, I had a reputation as a serial litigator to uphold.

    And that brings me to my third point, which is the question of whether your reputation is more defamed by some random anonymous commenter, or by a libel lawsuit which can easily invite further defamatory comments.

    My advice: don’t pull a Warren Kinsella.

  54. hey, perry mason; do you know the difference between slander and libel?

    “a libel lawsuit which can easily invite further defamatory comments.”

    spare us the veiled threats. i’m starting to get the idea that 4effer is your kid. get a leash on that brat, dad. he’s gonna end up costing a bundle.

    KEvron

  55. Walker — Duly noted and I’ll take that under advisement, but just from the outset, there’s a significant difference between “slander” and “libel”… I’m quite intimately familiar with this particular neck of the legal woods.

    It will cost me little to nothing to file suit and I can absolutely ruin this asshole — and I will quite gladly do so given that he’s blithely ignored my perfectly reasonable requests to retract postings by “anonymous” commenters (that an IP search by the RCMP will likely reveal him to have been sock-puppeting… and who knows what else they might discover…)

    Regarding your third point… Hmmm. I don’t have an altogether good answer to that. If it was “random” and actually “anonymous” then I wouldn’t be bothered all that much. But when it’s deliberate, reckless and willfully mendacious… ehhh… not so much.

  56. Red – I know there’s a difference between slander and libel legally, but in general I regard them as one and the same. But – I’ll bow to your greater knowledge on the topic in that respect.

    I’m just wondering if perhaps it would be best to let this one go. If Liberal4evr is doing what you think, then let that particular blogger fall into obscurity or revile because of it. Why should you stick your neck out for it?

    I just hate to see bloggers fighting amongst each other legally. Argue back and forth, by all means. Hell, throw a couple of insults my way ;p, but I just think it’s better for all concerned to stay out of the legal process.

    But that’s just my take on things. I ultimately don’t have a stake in the matter.

  57. Walker — I appreciate your take and you may well be right (quite wise before your time, young man…) but I think there may also be a larger point in play here also and I’ll have to give that some further thought.

    Fact of the matter is that I’m kind of preoccupied with annoyingly practical stuff at the moment, but I fully intend to revisit this irksome situation next month. Maybe I’ll be litigious… maybe not.

  58. Walker — Here’s the thing… I don’t have the slightest problem at all with being reviled, chastised, vilified, castigated or otherwise excoriated for my ideas, opinions, poor design of my blog, crappy writing, etc. What I most strenuously and vehemently object to however is being LIED about and misrepresented with respect to my personal affairs. There is no reason under the sun why this should be so.

    If bloggers want to dismiss this kind shite as no biggie… then good luck to you all, because there’s the slippery slope to oblivion. There are lines and boundaries… and we’re all kind of working those out, but I’m putting down a rather firm marker that you cannot INVENT stories about a blogger’s personal life, nor can you accuse them of committing CHILD ABUSE simply because you may disagree with them on an ideological level.

    If I’m just not “getting it” or am missing something here, then please let me know. Are there not certainly basics of decency in our discourse or has it really come to this terrible awfulness?

  59. I don’t know, to be honest. Certainly the benefit of anonymity has emboldened many to break through what limits we had on what we thought we could get away with saying.

    I’ve not personally been defamed too badly, although I once had someone call me a pedophile in private correspondence. Not exactly enjoyable, but in the end, I generally find myself feeling sorry for those whose lives are so small that they feel they must demean others because of it.

    I think you’re right. Someone accusing you of beating your own children is a disgusting thing to say. It’s not even low, or libelous. It’s just plain disgusting. And while I would be inclined to simply ignore such a thing, I was not personally the one being defamed.

    I don’t think that person accused you of such a thing because of anything so upright as an ideological disagreement, and what that person said was most definitely not fair comment on anything that you yourself have said.

    But I just pose the question of whether a lawsuit is worth putting up with more of the same from that person, plus more from other bloggers who a) already don’t like you, or b) don’t have the full picture.

    That being said, I in no way defend what that person posted. It was a completely disgusting thing to do, and quite frankly, if you could track that person down and hit them with libel lawsuit papers, in the end, that’s your business, and you’re entitled to do so.

    Perhaps my main objection is that you don’t actively know that it was Liberal4evr’s sockpuppetry which resulted in those comments, and to blame Liberal4evr for not deleting those comments almost seems like shifting the blame to a third party. And ultimately, it could just result in unnecessary unpleasantness in the Liberal blogosphere.

    You know what I mean?

  60. Yes, I know precisely what you mean and that’s why (amongst other reasons) I’m going to sit on it and ponder about it for a while…

    But I think others should invest a bit of thought into the matter also because this is something that should be deeply concerning.and more than a little unsettling. James Bowie has been traveling down this path for some time now, writing with respect to how poltical opinions and outspoken ideas can end in marginaliztion, the death of careers and worse…

  61. “to blame Liberal4evr for not deleting those comments almost seems like shifting the blame to a third party.”

    it mat “seem” that way, but, sadly for 4effer, canadian law sees him as a first party in the matter, despite your sophistry.

    KEvron

  62. I see that he’s shut down comments on that thread and is boo-hooing about his sainted mother now… The phony “victimization” this fellow apparently suffers from is truly quite astounding. Meanwhile, he seems oblivious to actual libelous and defamatory remarks that reference me by name (and my REAL name, not just some silly blog handle).

  63. Oh stop.

    I don’t know a thing about this fellow’s late mother and nor do I care in the least. It’s got nothing to do with anything.

  64. I suppose that would be why he shut down the comments on that thread, huh? 😉

    It’s a bit difficult to understand how one can engage in a “debate” with someone who’s not only obdurately stupid, but also deeply misinformed and illiterate.

  65. “someone who’s not only obdurately stupid, but also deeply misinformed and illiterate.”

    you’ll be hearing from my lawyers….

    KEvron

  66. LOL

    Allow me to quote from our old friend Carl’s blog today:

    It’s like the old joke about the priest who takes the money from the collection plate and tosses it in the air: whatever God can catch, he can keep.

  67. There were some spats involving him and others on AAR that I could just never seem to figure out. So bad, apparently, that people didn’t want to talk about them…

    Whatever. As you say — water under the bridge. I subscribe to his blog and read it occasionally. He sometimes has some smart remarks to make.

  68. Having an issue with a blogger’s opinion is one thing. Dragging someone’s personal life issues so hatefully into the battle is beyond the pale. Are you starting a defense fund? If so, I’m sure there would be a ton of people who would throw in their chips. And so would I.

  69. Barkman — First off, thanks for that.

    I really don’t want to make a big deal out of this and nor should it be. Why anyone would take a stand on protecting an “anonymous” commenter making vile, defamatory statements of a personal nature is beyond me.

    Anyway, we’ll see what can be done about getting him kicked off Liblogs for starters. Next up is his ISP. We’ll see how they feel about hosting this character. And then… Well, one step at a time.

    I really don’t mean to be a dickhead here, but I think it’s important for all bloggers to draw the line… someplace. This seems like a good place. We all have disagreements and sometimes say nasty, snarky things, but you don’t trash a person with their real name and spread LIES like that. It’s completely unacceptable.

  70. RT:

    The comments made about you by the anonymous person that he allowed to stand on his blog were beyond vile. Maybe I’m behind the curve here, but I suspect its the same guy who used to comment here as “Johnathon”. The writing styles are strikingly similar. Interestingly though, not even Patrick Ross believes a word of it.

    However, a word to the wise: civil litigation is expensive, time consuming and when its all said and done, rarely worth the high personal and monetary cost. Only corporations and the independently wealthy can truly afford to litigate in our society.

    I know that the principle is important, but too often by the time the legal process is over the principle of the thing has been overwhelmed by the unrecoverable cost and loss of your own productive time.

    I suspect that the person who made the libel does not have two dimes to rub together. That means no money at the end, and you pay your own legal costs. (If I’m wrong on that I might happily change my tune and say sue the bastard….)

    Nevertheless, there is no way this guy’s conduct should be allowed to stand. The blogging remedies you mention above are probably your best bet.

  71. “Only corporations and the independently wealthy can truly afford to litigate in our society.”

    hogwash.

    “the person who made the libel does not have two dimes to rub together.”

    then it’ll be a long time before he can enjoy a whole paycheck.

    “If I’m wrong on that I might happily change my tune and say sue the bastard”

    you don’t have the foggiest notion one way or the other, so you can go ahead and change your tune now.

    KEvron

  72. The comments about you RT were way over the top and cruel. Sorry to hear about the trouble in your personnel life.

    Let it go. Even I did not believe a word of it. 🙂

  73. Yes, you’re right. I should be thicker-skinned about such things and not let them get to me, but sometimes I do, especially right now when I’m feeling a bit vulnerable. Anyway, thanks for your comment.

  74. stop the dry tears rayner, you would not know what the word vulnerable means even if it bit you in the ass, there where no personal comments made that where not true or personal, and no one went out of their way to “attack” someone the way you did, and to all of you who like to sniff this fools ass, read what he writes about some poor smo, whose day after a hard days work culminated in a simple blog, I know this guy, and rayner does not even come up to his knees, in respect. There where more than one blogger on this site, and all of us think that what rayner did was unforgivable, your giving this ass unfounded support, if he does not like you, he would do the same. That is the issue. Think before you write a comment. Rayner is an asshole, and this site proves it. He was offered a peace if he deleted this site a long time ago, but he did not, as long as he leaves it up, he will be exposed for what he really is, a dickhead, who thinks he is privileged , no such thing in this country, and we will teach him a lesson.
    “No post whatsoever was ever made on liberal 4ever about rayners marriage problems”, none, so to use that as an excuse is amateurism, a feeble try at diverting the reality of rayners eletist attitude.

    “Oh well. When I get my finances in order in the next month or so, I’ll be filing a libel suit against him and will make him pay very dearly for his reckless insouciance in this regard.”
    Well, what the hell are you waiting for?

  75. stop the dry tears rayner, you would not know what the word vulnerable means even if it bit you in the ass, there where no personal comments made that where not true or personal, and no one went out of their way to “attack” someone the way you did, and to all of you who like to sniff this fools ass, read what he writes about some poor smo, whose day after a hard days work culminated in a simple blog, I know this guy, and rayner does not even come up to his knees, in respect. There where more than one blogger on this site, and all of us think that what rayner did was unforgivable, your giving this ass unfounded support, if he does not like you, he would do the same. That is the issue. Think before you write a comment. Rayner is an asshole, and this site proves it. He was offered a peace if he deleted this site a long time ago, but he did not, as along ass he leaves it up, he will be exposed for what he really is, a dickhead, who thinks he is privileged , no such thing in this country, and we will teach him a lesson.
    There was no post ever made about rayner marital problems on lib 4ever, none, so the game he plays for support in unfounded and would cause him a great deal of problem if he ever tries to sue, which he would not.

    “Oh well. When I get my finances in order in the next month or so, I’ll be filing a libel suit against him and will make him pay very dearly for his reckless insouciance in this regard.”
    Well what the hell are you waiting for?

  76. stop the dry tears rayner, you would not know what the word vulnerable means even if it bit you in the ass, there where no personal comments made that where not true or personal, and no one went out of their way to “attack” someone the way you did, and to all of you who like to sniff this fools ass, read what he writes about some poor smo, whose day after a hard days work culminated in a simple blog, I know this guy, and rayner does not even come up to his knees, in respect. There where more than one blogger on this site, and all of us think that what rayner did was unforgivable, your giving this ass unfounded support, if he does not like you, he would do the same. That is the issue. Think before you write a comment. Rayner is an asshole, and this site proves it. He was offered a peace if he deleted this site a long time ago, but he did not, as along ass he leaves it up, he will be exposed for what he really is, a dickhead, who thinks he is privileged , no such thing in this country, and we will teach him a lesson.
    There was no post ever made about rayner marital problems on lib 4ever, none, so the game he plays for support in unfounded and would cause him a great deal of problem if he ever tries to sue, which he would not.

    “Oh well. When I get my finances in order in the next month or so, I’ll be filing a libel suit against him and will make him pay very dearly for his reckless insouciance in this regard.”
    Well what the hell are you waiting for?

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