Well, excuse me for not giving a shit. Jeff Jedras seems quite excited by this news, but then he would, being a committed, diehard Liberal partisan and all.
This gives me the opportunity, as promised, to share my limited experience with the “Team B.C.” marketing arm of the LPC in the last election.
A few weeks prior to Election Day, I was asked to participate in a conference call regarding the roll-out of the Liberal platform as it related to the citizens of British Columbia. A little belated and trailing way behind the curve one might think, but still… not an altogether bad idea. So, I tuned into this sop to the online community out of curiosity, if nothing else.
The usual pre-conference call fumbling ensued… waiting for the principle speakers to depart a press conference, etc. Awkward silence, punctuated with awkward comments. Apparently, we were all supposed to have received the “platform” from “Team B.C.” but most it seemed had not. It was sitting in my e-mail inbox so during this idle period I opened it up and had a look see.
Eventually, the key players made their appearance and ran through the various points of the “B.C. Platform”… the focus of which seemed to be on safe injection sites for drug addicts, women’s rights, a gang violence “task force”… aboriginal rights, and… stuff I cannot remember without going back and referencing the actual document in question.
Colour me unimpressed. And I said as much. “What’s in this for me?” I asked, rather naively after the appointed spokesbots had dutifully read word-for-word from the “platform” that was supposedly custom-designed for people in British Columbia. As an “average” (in fact, economically speaking, well below “average”) person, this said absolutely NOTHING to me. And the response I received… “Oh, well this is just the ‘social justice’ part of our platform.” Uh huh. Good move… lead with your “social justice” angle — because that’s really what working people are looking for!
So, I was dismissively blown off. And I subsequently inquired with an e-mail to “Team B.C.” expressing my displeasure at the way their irksome “roll-out” was handled, the pandering menu of vacuous promises on offer and wanting to know about their other platform planks.
Follow-up: ZERO.
Really… that was it. This facile assortment of “social justice” window-dressing was the sum and substance of the “Team B.C.” platform. There was nothing else.
So, excuse me for being disillusioned and more than a little pissed off. I want to be a Liberal… I want to subscribe to the ideals that I think the party strives to embody, but in its present form, it’s hapless, hopelessly lost and completely inept. I only voted Liberal because of my local MP, otherwise my vote would have gone elsewhere. I’m not alone.
Red Tory v.3.0.3 
Nope, you’re not alone. That’s exactly how I’ve been feeling.
I have an important question that I’m hoping you can answer…..Don Bell was not re-elected. He had a private member’s bill pending. What happens to his bill now? Will it go forward or is it automatically cancelled?
Carrie — Nice to know that I’m not completely alone in this feeling of disengagement from the party that I ostensibly pledge allegiance to.
Regarding your question, it’s the latter, I’m afraid. Everything died on the order paper and will now need to be revived from scratch. At least that’s my understanding of the way things work.
It would be interesting to see how the Liberal Party behave in the next few months. Do they give voice to their grassroots supporters, aside from asking them to contribute, or do the party insiders give out command and the grunt should just follow?
A few weeks prior to Election Day, I was asked to participate in a conference call regarding the roll-out of the Liberal platform as it related to the citizens of British Columbia. A little belated and trailing way behind the curve one might think, but still… not an altogether bad idea.
Actually the call was Sept. 14, about one week into the campaign, and four weeks before election day. Not sure how that’s belated, and as for the curve, it was about three weeks before the NDP released their BC platform, and the Cons, well they never one.
Apparently, we were all supposed to have received the “platform” from “Team B.C.” but most it seemed had not.
They went out to everyone on the call about 45 minutes before it started, as was explained in the notes setting-up the call. As you said, when you checked your email, you found it there.
So, I was dismissively blown off.
They answered your questions, and only your questions, for all the time available for questions, even though others also had questions they’d have liked to ask. Now, you can quibble that you didn’t like the answers. That’s absolutely fair comment, that they weren’t able to communicate the “what’s in it for me” that you were looking for. That’s a valid criticism. But you weren’t blown off. They tried to answer you, and only you, for about 10 minutes.
This facile assortment of “social justice” window-dressing was the sum and substance of the “Team B.C.” platform. There was nothing else.
Actually, there were two other planks of the platform, as was explained at the time. They were released in the following weeks. The Green/Economy plank on Sept. 23 and the final plank on Oct. 5. All were widely distributed, and posted online.
cyberwanderer — Should be “interesting” indeed. I hold out no expectations of anything whatsoever.
Join us at Liberal 308 and see if its what you’re interested in.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30085797367
Jeff — Actually the call was Sept. 14, about one week into the campaign, and four weeks before election day. Not sure how that’s belated, and as for the curve, it was about three weeks before the NDP released their BC platform, and the Cons, well they never one.
Not to quibble, but in fact, it was Tuesday the 16th. Considering there was absolutely nothing NEW in the “platform” it’s difficult to see why it needed to exist at all and as for comparing it to that of the other parties… who cares? Maybe the whole concept of a “provincial” platform is a bit of a joke, no?
They went out to everyone on the call about 45 minutes before it started, as was explained in the notes setting-up the call. As you said, when you checked your email, you found it there.
Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Ooooo… it went out 45 minutes before the call. Like we’re not doing anything else in the meantime… being busy with… Oh, I dunno… work and such… early morning on a weekday. I guess that would account for the fact that no one else on the call seemed to have a clue what was being discussed or referenced. It was only because of the lag time waiting for the speakers to depart their press conference and not being in a mobile situation that I had the opportunity to check my e-mail and peruse the document beforehand (and thereby knew they were simply reading from it word-for-word).
They answered your questions, and only your questions, for all the time available for questions, even though others also had questions they’d have liked to ask.
So, in other words… I hogged the available time with my tiresome questions. Which they pointedly did NOT answer, by the way.
Allow me to re-cap for the benefit of those who weren’t in on the call. I was irked by the fact that nothing in this “social justice” aspect of the platform spoke to me (other than in an abstract sort of way). I wasn’t swayed by the emphasis on the Insite needle program and said that it was still rather controversial and poorly understood here in Victoria. That elicited a big yawn. Oh, and I felt that the promise of a crime “task force” would be too easily misunderstood as some kind of a committee to simply study the problem and report back. This was brushed off with the breezy explanation that “everyone” knew that a “task force” meant boots on the ground police forces. (You idiot!)
Actually, there were two other planks of the platform, as was explained at the time.
And when I asked why they decided to release them piecemeal like that, the answer I received from you was….NOTHING.
They were released in the following weeks. The Green/Economy plank on Sept. 23 and the final plank on Oct. 5. All were widely distributed, and posted online.
Perhaps so. But… BUY A FUCKING CLUE. If I didn’t see them, or somehow or other overlooked them, then it’s a fair bet that 99.37% of the electorate also missed them.
I know you’re not stupid, but why are you being so… dumb?
Deb — Oh no… Facebook! Argh. Maybe when I’m in a better mood. I’m so not into Facebook.
Or Twitter.
In Alberta we also had a province specific platform, “Made-in-Alberta Agenda
From your Federal Liberal Candidates.” This was also a joke and a waste of the paper it was printed on. It was ignored by most of the candidates and never advertised or promoted…But that’s probably a good thing.
If you’re board you can check it out at..
Click to access Made-in-Alberta_Agenda_September_13_2008%5B1%5D%5B1%5D.pdf
Jacob — The link doesn’t work. 🙂
This one should 🙂
http://www.liberalalberta.ca/p3494_e.aspx
Thanks.
Seems rather prosaic in hindsight, doesn’t it? Earnest, well-meaning… full of good intentions, jam-packed with disturbing statistics… For example:
In the future, 45% of new jobs in Canada will
require over 16 years of education. At the same
time, four out of ten Canadians currently read
and write at less than a grade nine level. Alberta
has the lowest enrollment rate in post-secondary
institutions in the country. Only 68% of Alberta
students finish high school.
Ponder that for while and soak up its significance. More than 30% of our kids are not graduating high school!
I’m sorry, but I just got stuck on that. It’s an awful statistic that bodes ill for the future.
But hey! Not to worry. Steve has a sweater-vest and is a “nice guy” that you’d want to share a coffee with at Tim’s (if he wasn’t accompanied by a security detail that involved numerous motorcycles, overhead helicopters, armed Hummers, and a fleet of armoured limos).
What sort of a “recount” is it that doesn’t RECOUNT every ballot? The (Liberal-appointed, I’m sure) judge decided not to count EVERY ballot cast in the riding, for reasons known only to him, and those that WERE recounted showed that the difference dropped from 33 to 22. Something is more than a little rotten in Denmark.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5is8Wr3gJz3VDzanIFiUJYq6ElIOQ
Red Tory – I agree with you. The handful of Liberal bloggers/delegates, etc. seem to think “they” have to be heard about an agenda, renewal, etc. They don’t like the idea of one member one vote system. They think “they” are the only ones in the know, who have a say and everyone else’s (being voters) know nothing, should say nothing and not be involved. “They” don’t get it – the other parties have updated – they get it and they raked in a lot more money.
While I’m here – wasn’t it Bob Rae heading a team of renewal and policies? Why is no one talking about that? Did Dion ignore Rae’s policy platform? Or, is it Rae’s platform that Dion went for?
And, I’ll be attacked again for this….but this hero worship stuff has got to stop. They have to really think about who they support. Just because someone is a little younger doesn’t mean they’re qualified. We had this whole Kennedy and Dion hero worship stuff and look what happened. Yes, we want the youth involved, but please to shut someone out because they are over 55 is nuts.
Just look at what’s happening now to Super Mario (Dumont) in Quebec.
Backroom deals should be a thing of the past. They don’t want to give that up – because they like the attention, the partying and the feeling that “they” have the say. Well, the last election proves otherwise.
Jesus Christ…
Red Tory – I agree with you…
Good move.
Thanks RT.
Sandi,
You have absolutely no credibility. Everyone knows you are hero worshipper of Ignatieff. Your posts are filled with attacks on all the other previous leadership candidates, except Ignatieff.
And backroom deals, Iggy made plenty of those during the last leadership contest.
There was no backroom deal between Dion and Kennedy. It was the most well publicized pre-convention alliance in leadership history. Candidates that are not going to win have every right to support someone. Kennedy chose Dion on principle- he liked his ideas the best. He did not like Ignatieff’s ideas or approach. Get over it.
I too emailed Jeff during the campaign, and I did get a response. I’m not sure if they were able to incorporate my idea to get more edgy with their video releases, but at least someone was listening.
Whoa! And here I was beginning to think I should get a stick.
I don’t know much about BC politics, but after the Green Shift was anounced campaigning everywhere resembled going swimming with a cement block tied to your waist.
As far as province specific policy, I’ll add this. In my Maritime riding there wasn’t a single liberal party sign visible, not one mail out nor any sign of human existence shown outwardly by the Party. I guess the 5000 plus votes they got mostly came from the Liberal brand element. Let’s assume this government last for 2 years, and apply the $1.75. Out of the approx. $20,000 they couldn’t afford a few signs for main roadways? I had to go to the internet to find out who the candidate was. BTW, the NDP bested them by over 1,000 votes and those pesky Greens got over 2,000. The CPC carried the day. I wonder how many ridings had this same scenario?
Hmm..Did Bob Hope and Bing ever make a movie called The Road to Obscurity?
Gina – you get over it – Kennedy blew it. I was not talking about Ignatieff…..I was talking about inclusion and participation and the Liberals don’t have that right now – and the election proved it.
The other parties have updated and their funding proves it.
It doesn’t matter who supported who – it matters that other Canadians and Liberal supporters are included.
Otherwise – things will not change.
I hardly think you, Gina, has any more credibility than anyone else.
Get over the fact that your hero blew it.
I had to go to the internet to find out who the candidate was. BTW, the NDP bested them by over 1,000 votes and those pesky Greens got over 2,000. The CPC carried the day. I wonder how many ridings had this same scenario?
In my riding, with a population of about the same as the entire province of PEI, it didn’t quite go like this.
RT: “And I said as much. “What’s in this for me?””
Asking what you can do for your country again, I see.
Sandi makes a good point: Rae was in charge of policy for this election, why is the shit not sticking to him?
Ujjal is my dark horse pick. No French? That’s racist as hell against immigrants, who have a hard enough time learning one language, let alone two.
The number of Francophones in this country is dropping rapidly both in real numbers and as a percentage of the population; the “two founding peoples” concept is an anachronism inappropriate for post-national Canada of the 21st century.
Carlyle Group Frank: Can someone explain to me how anti-abortion hardliner Frank McKenna is appropriate as leader for the Liberal party of 2008?
The number of Francophones in this country is dropping rapidly both in real numbers and as a percentage of the population; the “two founding peoples” concept is an anachronism inappropriate for post-national Canada of the 21st century.
This, the Liberal Party of Canada does not need.
French is still an important language in this country, far more so than any other with the exception of English and it will remain so for the foreseeable future.
I don’t care if Ujjal speaks French, but to suggest it doesn’t matter is the type of thinking that died out decades ago.
“Asking what you can do for your country again, I see.”
why should anyone ever ask that?
KEvron
Sandi,
Kennedy did not blow anything. He ran a fantastic underdog campaign and took it far. Your guy blew his lead and lost.
Your campaign against the other leadership candidates is extremely transparent and by doing this you are laughable to speak of “inclusion”.
Are you not an Ignatieff supporter????? It is completely relevant.
Kennedy ran on a renewal platform, so do not lecture Liberals on what needs to be done to fix the Party. Start, by outlawing campaigning to replace the Leader behind his back.
As for age, age is the least of Ignatieff’s problems. There are many qualified candidates that also happen to be younger.
Kennedy is not running this time but you can be sure with posters like you, former Kennedy supporters will stay miles away from voting for Ignatieff.
Liberal308 — Asking what you can do for your country again, I see.
I didn’t quite intend it the way it sounded there. What I meant was that there was nothing in the platform that spoke to the average, white, male voter, that’s all. If that makes me sound horrible, well so be it.
Generally speaking, I’ve never asked for nor expected anything out of the ordinary from government. Heck, in the last 30 years I’ve only claimed EI once for a month and that after paying god knows how much into the program. I could have knocked back for a year and have done nothing after I “retired” but I felt guilty and started my own business.
So I’m not really looking for anything in particular, but it would be nice to think that the party has me and others likewise situated in mind somehow or other.
“If that makes me sound horrible, well so be it.”
it’s a question that will always be asked, and for which an answer should always be ready.
KEvron
Kennedy is not running this time but you can be sure with posters like you, former Kennedy supporters will stay miles away from voting for Ignatieff.
Oh please, both of you, act like adults…everyone under 28 was drinking the kool aid of their candidates during leadership in 2006, including me
-ITC
I’m not looking forward to this next leadership race. I hope they make it short and sweet. 😉
I can not wait for Mark Marissen to be shown the door. I mean who is trying to kid. Gordan Campbell policies, and that is all that the Team BC platform is, were never go to convince Green voters, left Liberals and NDP supporters to vote Liberal.
As for the social justice pillars of the platform lets me say this about Insite.
I am amazed at the kind of excitement Insite has elicited over the years. Yes Insite is meeting its goals (e.g., saving the tax payer some money), but success of Insite needs to be put in context. Europe has had safe injection sites long before Canada got one and so for this reason alone we should not be so eager to pat ourselves on the back. Canada is a generation or more behind Europe. Furthermore, what Insite can accomplish is very limited in scope. Heroin addiction at its most basic level is an economic imperative and Insite does not address that. The NAMOI project, by comparison, has way more potential, for that very reason, and it has garnered but a fraction of the press. The results of very small heroin maintenance study conducted in Vancouver and Montreal have just been released. It shows what studies in Europe have repeatedly shown, viz., heroin maintenance programs reduces, among other things, criminality. Conservatives will put an end to this program and outside of Hedy Fry and Libby Davis and to possibly Stephen Dion! no MP will decry such a decision.
The value of Insite from a political perspective for the Liberals is not what Insite can and does accomplish. No, the value lies in the fact that the Conservatives have repeatedly tried to distort the body of research on Insite for ideological reasons and that far from being an isolated incident it is part of disturbing pattern.
As for Dosanjh taking a run at the Liberal leadership race, he is a solid MP and cabinet material. However, he is simply not in Rae or Ignatieff’s league as orator. Worse, he does not speak French. The Liberals can not make the same mistake that they did with Dion. The ability to speak both French and English fluently is a necessity. Moreover, the only hope the Liberals have for capturing a minority government next election is Quebec. For that reason alone, it would be politically insane to pick someone that does not speak French.
Gina – I’m not going to waste time fighting about who supports who – afterall, it’s anyone’s right to support who they want. It really isn’t something evil to support someone you don’t support.
And, I don’t mean to pick on Rae. I was just curious if Dion went on his own with his own plan or was it the policies set out by Rae and his team of policy planners – just curious.
Anyone notice that the Conservative and NDP supporters don’t attack each other?
Do either of these parties make public everything they are working on during their policy planning?
Do either of these parties have “secret sources” that hurt their parties?
The Liberal Party desparately needs to modernize and grow up.
Koby — I have no problem with Insite. From what I understand it’s a worthwhile part of an overall harm reduction strategy — when looked at objectively there’s really not a lot of downside to it. What I was trying to get across to the folks at “Team BC” was that the concept is still poorly understood and quite controversial here in Victoria. Lots of NIMBY attitudes you know when it comes to the homeless and indigent population (generally regarded as a scourge and a blight on the place as much as anything else).
What I was trying to say was that it’s just not going to be a vote-getter with middle-class suburbanites — if anything, it would be a turn-off. They dismissed that as not being the experience in Vancouver where “professionals” agreed it was a positive initiative. Well, sorry… but Victoria isn’t Vancouver. We only have one “urban” riding here (and even that’s only partially so). Maybe they need to get some people on their “team” that are from rural and suburban communities in addition to the usual suspects from the usual places.
The one Liberal candidate who won his seat in the election here on the Island (Keith Martin in my riding of Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca) did it strictly on his own personal record and long incumbency and a range of strictly LOCAL issues. He didn’t campaign at all on the “Green Shift” — in fact, it wasn’t even mentioned in his literature. Nor did he mention “Insite” or indeed ANY of the policies in the “Team BC” platform. I can guarantee you that had it been anyone but him, they would have lost. As it was, he only hung on by the narrowest of margins.
Sandi/Gina — The bickering about former (present) leadership hopefuls is really annoying. I didn’t much care for it during the last race and at the end of the day wound up backing no one (I had initially leaned heavily towards Ignatieff, but being constantly on the defensive about his past/present statements on Iraq, torture/strenuous interrogation, Israel, Quebec nationalism, etc. seemed to bode ill for the future).
Dion was an acceptable compromise and I still maintain that he should have carried on and been given a second chance. He would surely have grown into the position had he been given the unqualified support of the dreaded “insiders”… Oh well. That’s not to be and so now we move on to selecting a new leader. To me, that’s really the least of our concerns. It’s significant, but just one thing amongst many that need to be addressed to fix what’s gone horribly wrong with the Liberal Party over the years.
I don’t really care who the new leader is provided he/she is: intelligent; good at retail politics; media savvy; fluently bilingual; reasonably charismatic/charming; diplomatic; well connected; and not overly polarizing.
Anyway, that aside, the party definitely needs to be “modernized” from the ground up. A good start in that direction would be to do away with the delegate system and give each member a vote. I’ve said before that I refuse to renew my membership or contribute anything to the party unless they do this. I suspect that I may not be alone in feeling this way. If the Liberals haven’t figured out that they’re simply not connecting successfully with their “grassroots” by now, then they’re lost… Time to just write them off as a venerable but quaint relic of the past and find another party that’s more interested in plugging into their supporters.
They need to figure out some creative ways of fundraising that: a) leverage off the “buy in” from the above-noted reform; b) give members a more dynamic way of interacting and communicating with the party — and not just at election time (how about some policy or issue-driven plebiscites from time to time?).
They also need to stake out a place on the political map and fight to defend it. Is it left of centre, right of centre… where does the LPC stand generally speaking? The Liberals are getting nipped at from the left and the right and they just seem to be oscillating a little this way, a little that way to the point where they’re just “vague” and poorly defined. So, they need to construct a new frame of reference — one that may not be “all things to all people” as Paul Martin tried so desperately to be, because that fuzzy kind of thinking just isn’t working any more.
And so on.
As an Ontarian, I’m always amazed at how local federal elections are for Western Canadians.
We don’t have that problem in Ontario.
Of course not… you’re in the “centre of the universe” after all.
“What I meant was that there was nothing in the platform that spoke to the average, white, male voter, that’s all.”
Fair enough, but what were you expecting? Are you just now cluing in that the Liberal Party of Canada is – I’ll be charitable here – not terribly interested in the concerns of you and your kind? I don’t think you’re that dense…what the hell are you doing supporting the Liberals in the first place? I don’t think you are being forthcoming with the “white male” schtick, it isn’t you at all. So what is the attraction?
Koby: it is impossible to review the following chronology of facts:
-Taliban eradicate heroin
-Availability of heroin drops on Canadian streets (this is very well documented)
-Taliban are immediately invaded and overthrown
-Heroin production rapidly increases
-Many stories emerge about Karzai’s brother and other top Afghans being involved in heroin, all under protection of invaders
-A massive push to normalize and condone heroin use in Canada suddenly appears
…and not clue in that you are a Bush\PNAC stooge. Your pro-heroin policies are a great help to the occupiers and imperialists. When you support public heroin parks, you are doing the biddings of Bush and PNAC. Good job, buddy.
Of course not… you’re in the “centre of the universe” after all.
Hardly. Ontario just happens to be where 40% of the population of Canada lives and which generates 40% of the GDP. Otherwise, the place really is forgettable.
But my larger point was…despite the Harper Party’s propaganda with regard to Insite, isn’t it something entirely under provincial jurisdiction?
Ti-Guy — That was your “larger point”? LOL
To be honest, I’m not really sure where the funding comes from or under whose jurisdiction it falls. It may well be under the aegis of the provincial government, but as with many arguments in this field where there are transfers of money involved, things get quite murky.
Ti-Guy
My riding has roughly 58,000 eligible voters. Likely, not so different to yours population wise.
Likely, not so different to yours population wise.
My riding’s population is 120,000.
Ti-Guy — That was your “larger point”? LOL
It seems to me that BC’er’s have not addressed the Harpy Party’s incursion into provincial jurisdiction adequately and that these regional issues with regard to health care delivery (and regional contraventions of the Canada Health Act) are amplifying weaknesses that continually undermined universal health care in Canada.
It’s the same criticism I’ve lobbed against Quebec, with its lousy public health care and the expansion of for-profit delivery in that province. The reason that’s happened is that Quebec spends the lowest amount per capita on health of any province in Canada, or it did, the last time I looked, when the Charkaoui. decision came down.
I think 40% of the population of Canada should start thinking seriously about how priorities for the federal government are determined and be a little less tolerant of the fact that some provinces simply aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing. Ontarians are still net contributors to equalisation, after all.
Liberal308 — There are different ways of looking at politics. It’s a complex mixture of theory and practical application. To put my outlook in a nutshell it’s “socially progressive, fiscally conservative, ideologically centrist and highly skeptical.”
Why do I support the Liberals? Well, that’s a very good question; one that I frequently ask myself. I suppose we gravitate to the party that best seems to reflect our values, ideals and general way of thinking about issues and dealing with them. I’ve always been drawn more to the Liberals because, above all, they were pragmatic and realistic while also acknowledging that perhaps we had some higher moral aspirations than just self satisfaction (the “progressive” instinct that presumes we can always improve on things as they are and advance them in a positive direction — “lifting all boats” and making for a better world and all that rot).
I suppose it would be easy to just be completely cynical about the whole enterprise and maybe that’s the more sensible route at the end of the day, but there’s something that wants to hang on to a somewhat more idealistic view of things without being completely untethered from reality.
Silly, naïve… Could well be.
If I may be allowed a short comment on Ujjal Dosanjh.
He is curt, appears angry, and is no asset to the LPC. Vote him in as your leader if you want, but he brings no one with him and will gather no new people.
On Thanksgiving Day I had the good fortune to listen to the Rutherford radio show with Dosanjh as the guest. Rutherford let his listeners pose the questions and stayed back to allow a free form discussion. Dosanjh was argumentative and on several calls , the caller actually got the better of him. He also showed he did not understand what he was talking about when asked questions about percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere or what defines an assault weapon.
If I may be allowed a short comment on Ujjal Dosanjh.
Translation: May I be permitted to insult Liberals? Thank you…*ahem*…
If Liberals aren’t angry Tomm, it’s because they’ve capitulated.
Ti-Guy — It seems to me that BC’er’s have not addressed the Harpy Party’s incursion into provincial jurisdiction adequately…
You’re getting deep into the weeds there. Not that I disagree with you. Just that this is waaaaaay beyond the comprehension of the “average” voter. When I made my remarks to “Team BC” it was with my “Joe Six-Pack” hat firmly in place.
Not to sound all “elitist” or anything, but it has to be said that the understanding of the “average” voter is wafer thin when it comes to most issues.
It cannot be overstressed how much things need to be DUMBED DOWN in order to cut through the clutter and noise. I would safely wager that only a small percentage of the population knows that the provinces are actually responsible for the management of healthcare. The wording of the question would be critical there… but it’s not difficult to imagine a result of 2-3 in 10 not realizing this simple fact. Moreover, the vast majority don’t have a CLUE how the CHA really works.
why should anyone ever ask that?
KEvron
Indeed. Why should they?
I believe the greater issue he was trying to address was association/disassociation with a significant portion of the voting public.
I am open to correction.
Odd that some make best efforts on behalf of those they will never meet, never receive a shred of gratitude from, nor an ounce of gold for their efforts.
Odd that.
Correction: 2-3 realizing this simple fact. 70-80% being unaware of it.
Ti-Guy,
To defend myself (why do I do this?), the title of the post was about Dosanjh winning re-election with the results of the re-count. I guess I’m just agreeing with our host that it’s no big deal.
Further, Dosanjh has indicated an interest in the LPC leadership. As he said he doesn’t speak French but does speak several other languages. I was commenting on my thoughts.
It cannot be overstressed how much things need to be DUMBED DOWN….
What needs to be dumbed down? What I outlined above is easily within the grasp of someone who’s graduated from high school.
C’mon…you can’t be that cynical, can you?
Tomm — Is anyone seriously touting Dosanjh as a candidate for the leadership? If so, they’re nuts. A nice enough guy, I guess… but completely out of the question for leader — unless that is, the Liberals want to spend many long, fruitless years in the wilderness… not that they’re probably bound in that direction in any case.
Ti-Guy
October 25, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Likely, not so different to yours population wise.
My riding’s population is 120,000.
I know the population of PEI. Your point was?
Hugger=BONG!
Ti-Guy — Yes, I am that cynical. And could be much more so.
Look, people are busy… they don’t have time to pour over these things like YOU do. They get information thrown at them from a hundred different directions, and they’ve got busy personal lives… politics seems so irrelevant and annoying and what difference does it all make anyway?
Sorry, but this is the reality for most people.
Information needs to be packaged into simple soundbites and memorable phrases. Most people just don’t have time for all the blah, blah, blah and fine minutia of details, nuance and what not.
Tomm — Is anyone seriously touting Dosanjh as a candidate for the leadership?
Of course not. Tomm just used the opportunity to insult Liberals, based on some stupid talk radio show where some redneck, seething with hatred and ignorance, managed to discombobulate Dosanjh, as the rednecks do. And that’s only if we take that story at face value…
Ti Guy
Another infield grounder. AA ball forever.
Look, people are busy… they don’t have time to pour over these things like YOU do.
Or watch three 24-hour American television news networks, like you do?
Believe you me, I spend very little time pouring over issues to inform myself. A daily newspaper, a couple of monthly magazines, podcasts for when I’m mowing the lawn or shoveling the snow and a book every two weeks. And then there’s my job.
What else are people busy with? What do you think people are busy with?
Red, I don’t see it so much as cynicism as I see it as a part of the plain truth.
And you said it so well. You’re on a roll dude, give ’em hell. It’s an important step in achieving a connection.
I’m not suggesting that I’m typical in any way, shape or form when it comes to this sort of thing.
What else are people busy with? What a ludicrous question. You name it… work mostly — when they’re not actually AT work, they’re talking about it afterward, and then “personal” shit… relationships and so on.
“What else are people busy with? What a ludicrous question. You name it… ”
Ok, I will. 8 hours of mind-numbing work, 8 hours of sleep and 8 hours of wasting their time. As in …ffftt….BONG!:
“And you said it so well. You’re on a roll dude, give ‘em hell. It’s an important step in achieving a connection.”
And your point?
Information needs to be packaged into simple soundbites and memorable phrases. Most people just don’t have time for all the blah, blah, blah and fine minutia of details, nuance and what not.
Exactly, and Dion could have never ever produced such soundbites or memorable phrases no matter how hard he tried. Chretien could. What do you hear every day in the media down south when Mr. O is covered on t.v? “90% of you will get tax cuts”…day in and day out. I even have nightmares about it.
-ITC
Err, did someone miss family? Kids..(ever so demanding little creatures) Romance, (have you gandered at the divorce rate?) Every twerp expert trying to download their job on parents?? In fairness, every twerp parent trying to upload theirs…etc. etc.
Someones got to keep all those balls in the air.
And no Ty Guy, not all those schleps are banging the bong. Although, I did notice your fascination with it.
Ti-Guy — Let’s go back to the original contention, shall we? It was that people are busy and bombarded with “information” of all kinds, but that they simply don’t have the time, patience, or wherewithal to sort through it all and therefore things need to be encapsulated in simple messages that are easily digested.
I’m not quite sure what you find to be so incredibly risible about this notion, but let’s focus in on the 8 hours of “wasted time” that, in the lives of many people, is spent just yammering about what they did in the 8 hours of “working” time or is expended dealing with various “personal” matters regarding their kids, friends, gossip, relationships, TV shows, etc. Where exactly does “politics” insinuate itself into that matrix of opinion/discussion, but for the oh-so-rare exception that’s usually fraught with anxiety, frustration and copious amounts of misinformation?
And your point?
My point is that lack of time is a rationalisation to escape the responsibility of being minimally informed about issues of public interest. Coupled with the whine of “They didn’t sell it to me effectively!” it signals nothing other than the complete and total cretinisation of North American “civilisation.”
Lest you think I’m blaming Joe-Six-Pack and Mary-Winebox exclusively, I’m even more critical of our stupid media (directed by very well-educated, well-remunerated people) that has co-opted the public airwaves (which is a common good) that no longer even pretends to “educate, entertain or inform.”
Ti-Guy — Yes, you have a point (especially with regards to the media that is, as we know, horribly lazy and intellectually slothful), but I’m much more sympathetic to the plight of the “average” voter/citizen who is beleaguered with countless distractions and “real world” concerns to sift through policies and analysis regarding different issues… Dismiss that as as a facile “rationalization” if you want, but it’s the way things are.
I would disagree with the entertain, but I am getting the sense we are all arguing similar points of view. Just that no one wants to admit it.
How liberal of us.
but I’m much more sympathetic to the plight of the “average” voter/citizen who is beleaguered with countless distractions and “real world” concerns…
Like what, exactly?
I would disagree with the entertain…
The mass media doesn’t even entertain anymore. It just pacifies and makes sure eyeballs are glued to it so ratings remain high and the advertising commands top dollar…in that highly competative market where “choice” (ha, ha…HA!) is what consumers demand.
Like what, exactly?
Do you have a job?
Do you have a wife… kids…?
I throw those out for starters.
It’s obvious that it entertains many to some degree. I too quickly tire of it when they become incessantly repititious or blatantly bias, but it is intended to entertain. If it didn’t, they would have no market. Anyone who can stand to watch general TV programing for a while, understands what the level of so called entertainment has become.
That’s why we are here, isn’t it? My cable bill is paid up.
This isn’t about me, Red. It’s about the average Joe.
Face it. The number of people that tune into “Mike Duffy Live” or “Politics” with Don Newman, or… even less political coverage on CPAC is infinitesimal in the broad scheme of things. The number of people that subscribe to newspapers is likewise relatively small. The number of people that read/view blogs is fractional at best. In a sense, we are all just pissing in the wind…
I will never forgive Dosanjh for his race-baiting heavy handedness as attorney general of BC during the Gufstason Lake incident.
Ti-Guy — No, of course it’s not all about you. However, you asked what were the distractions and “real world” concerns of the “average voter” — which I thought I’d reasonably described previously — and so I simply put the question back on you.
Maybe you’re not the “average” voter and maybe I’m not either, but I think the Liberals need to start figuring out who that generic person is if they’re going to make any headway moving forward.
I too quickly tire of it when they become incessantly repititious or blatantly bias, but it is intended to entertain. If it didn’t, they would have no market.
This argument is circular. It’s entertaining because it’s called entertainment? I’m pretty sure a conceptual definition of entertainment wouldn’t include something you stare at impassively for hours on end and which elicits no physical nor emotional response.
but I think the Liberals need to start figuring out who that generic person is if they’re going to make any headway moving forward.
I don’t think so. The Conservatives have a lock on them and when consumer culture hits its nadir and the economy tanks undeniably (predicted for next summer), they’ll be stuck with them. Liberals (and the other progressive parties) have to offer alternatives.
The argument has been made that to improve democracy, people need to discuss political issues with their neighbours. Thre are a few polls that this behaviour is on the decline. Politics has become a fringe interest, reserved for policy wonks (like us 🙂 ).
Ti, could the argument be made that the policies themselves, though, don’t have to be dumbed down but presented in a way for maximum comprehension or at least in a way that people can’t twist around. For example, in the last election, what bugged me about the Green Shift was how the other parties noted the carbon tax but not the income tax cuts. (That and the fact that they would pretend that with a cap and trade system the polluters would be the ones paying… guys, the costs would have been past down along to the consumers. You’re putting a price on carbon, but hiding it.) The second part, the actual part that made it a shift was lost. Would it have been better to play up the income tax cut first–an income tax cut where you have to pollute less to benefit from it–so that it wouldn’t have been lost in the land of sound bites…? (Of corse this is all second guessing at this point, and I’m fairly sure this would have created another dumb ad campaign — Liberals promoting reckless tax cuts that threaten a deficit.)
Sharon…no doubt the selling of the Green Shift had to be dealt with differently…in hindsight. But check out this this thread at Macleans and look at how “Catherine” (in an experience we can all relate to) talks about a policy that, while not amenable to soundbites, isn’t exactly mystifying to anyone with a high school education. Notice how she deals with the obstacles that have a lot more to do with politics, media, boundless right wing hostility and widespread cynicism.
It’s a hard job, being a Liberal.
Ti-Guy — The Conservatives have a lock on them and when consumer culture hits its nadir…
A neat combination of defeatism and anticipated shadenfrued… very dismal.
Sharon — … could the argument be made that the policies themselves, though, don’t have to be dumbed down but presented in a way for maximum comprehension or at least in a way that people can’t twist around.
As I said, “dumbed down” — an awkward expression perhaps, but it translates into the same thing.
A neat combination of defeatism and anticipated shadenfrued… very dismal.
Defeatism? Don’t you have parents who are from WW2 England? Don’t I have parents who lived through The Depression? There’s no defeatism when you acknowledge the conditions that will arise ineluctable out of a situation you can’t control and never could.
As for Schadenfreude…well, I’ll try hard not to gloat.
Defeatism in the sense of surrendering the field to the enemy. I don’t happen to think this particular battle is altogether lost.
But check out this this thread at Macleans and look at how “Catherine” (in an experience we can all relate to) talks about a policy that, while not amenable to soundbites, isn’t exactly mystifying to anyone with a high school education.
Catherine does a good job at discussing the policy (Go Catherine!).
As for the high school education bit — the general consensus in the media was that the concept was too difficult to understand… was it?
Maybe we should just try to have these conversations out among our friends and neighbours. Lets air the facts out and see what policies are best.
Or at least deal with the misconceptions and lies. (The downright lies get to me.)
As I said, “dumbed down” — an awkward expression perhaps, but it translates into the same thing.
Yes, I was trying to make it palatable. 😉
I’m not much in the mood for mincing words these days.
Catherine does a good job at discussing the policy (Go Catherine!).
Off-topic, but nonetheless timely. I think people should boycott Macleans blogs entirely. I came across this comment this evening by Paul Wells:
“Folks: please stop being idiots in the comment threads. That applies here and everywhere on Inkless. I am going to be much, much more heavy-handed in enforcing minimal standards of decorum.”
…after which, he shut off comments.
I thought it was amusing, because normally, the Macleans bloggers entertain any and all ridiculous buffoonery and trolling, but this issue got Wells all fired up. So, I decided to joke about it in a previous post of his, and posted a comment chiding him for not being so particular about baseless assertions and vilification.
Well, lo and behold, that comment disappeared and one subsequent one, referring to it. LOL!
This is Macleans remember, which stood up in principle for free speech when it came to Mark Steyn and continues to receive 3 million dollars a year from taxpayers through the Publications Assistance Program.
What did I say about the media? It’s not only stupid, it’s venal.
…and very, very petulant.
Maybe we should just try to have these conversations out among our friends and neighbours. Lets air the facts out and see what policies are best.
Sharon: The basic premise of the Green Shift was sound. Make pollution more expensive and make less polluting consumption choices more affordable. The lies are what did it in and well, what can you do about that?
Considering the way that thread was spiraling into an asinine anti-Semitic nosedive, I can’t really fault Wells for pulling the plug on it. I’d be inclined to do the same thing. I’ve got no patience for such flaming idiocy.
That wasn’t the issue. He can shut off comments at any time, I have no problem with that. He even explained why he did.
It was the the complete disappearance of my comments, with no explanation.
Remember…this is the Macleans…that disappeared two blog posts, one by Andrew Potter, in which he called Mike Duffy a despicable human being and another by Katie O’Malley, defending the post.
Do you get my point?
There. It’s deleted. Happy now?
I was posting a comment to that post when you deleted it…in that process, it crashed my browser.
The experience was singular and meaningful on so many levels.
Kudos, Red. 😉
And lo, there was peace in the land…. for at least for the night.
🙂
I thought it was amusing, because normally, the Macleans bloggers entertain any and all ridiculous buffoonery and trolling, but this issue got Wells all fired up. So, I decided to joke about it in a previous post of his, and posted a comment chiding him for not being so particular about baseless assertions and vilification.
Well, lo and behold, that comment disappeared and one subsequent one, referring to it. LOL!
Most people have a tolerance for attacks and trolling just as long as it’s on others and not on themselves. I don’t read Wells’ blog so I can’t gage his behaviour on all of these things. Fact Check came out of left field, but you’d think he’d just close the thread… not decide to do a general crackdown because of it (or was it the general straw that broke the camel’s back?)
The vanishing Duffy posts may have to do with defamation of character (may, I’m not a lawyer, and I confess that I didn’t read them).
Ti-Guy — You try my patience sometimes. 😉
This is Macleans remember, which stood up in principle for free speech when it came to Mark Steyn and continues to receive 3 million dollars a year from taxpayers through the Publications Assistance Program.
Their defense Steyn’s article was free speech. How much the magazine actually believes in it is another question. (Most people tolerate other people’s opinions until it touches on a few personal buttons.)
Macleans can delete whatever it wants. It’s the Orwellian disappearing that gets me…especially in the light of its defense of Mark Steyn.
I just “disappeared” a whole post. It’s all pretty ephemeral at the end of the day.
But yes, it does seem kind of ironic given Macleans strident position on free speech.
Ti-Guy — You try my patience sometimes.
Note to self: do not try Red’s patience unless you want your browser to crash.
😉
Normally, my patience is almost limitless… These days, however, I find that it’s a little strained.
But yes, it does seem kind of ironic given Macleans strident position on free speech.
I’m actually getting very concerned that as hard copy media disappears, we’ll have nothing left but digital records, overseen by “journalists” like Paul Wells and the rest of the bunch at Macleans, who disappear contemporary records and don’t seem particularly concerned about it.
Ti-Guy — It’s a perfectly legitimate concern. As we venture ever further into the dystopic reality of the cyberwonderland it’s not inconceivable that we could simply be “erased” from existence for all intents and purposes with nothing more than a few simple keystrokes. Consider how easy it is already to steal someone’s identity, destroy their reputation or libel them anonymously.
Anyway, back to more mundane things. I’m going to re-post that Kennedy thing because I thought it was pretty damn funny and I really shouldn’t let my petulance get the better of me. But quit with the kvetching already! Sheesh. Leave that to the trolls, for goodness sake.
Ok, but I’ll repost what I intended to originally…that’s there’s no cock Rick Mercer won’t suck.
…ooooh!
Groan. Whatever…
I happen to like Rick Mercer immensely, notwithstanding his cock-sucking proclivities (not that there’s anything wrong with that!)
Anyway. It’s re-posted for what it’s worth. Basically, just a launch pad for some discussion about the Liberal “leadership” if anyone is interested in that topic.
I don’t know. I really went off Mercer when he gushed about Ezra Levant…”He’s a character! Ha ha ha…” Yeah, so was Hitler…
Maybe I should introduce him to my nice brother-in-law…
Re low graduation rate. Remember we have a number of Hutterite Colonies in AB, and all those students quit school after grade 8. What percentage of non grade 12 graduates are they.
If you ever visit a colony and go thru their shops, barns, kitchens etc you will discover that these high-school drop outs are very skilled in every trade, have the latest equipment and technology and all that expertise was received without the benefit of university, trade schools, college or any other higher learning. Makes you wonder if higher learning is necessary for experience and knowledge.
MaryT — So you are celebrating ignorance and willful stupidity? Well, that explains a lot.