Aljazeera looks at the devastating aftermath of what Ezra Levant laughably describes as “Israel’s defensive war against Hamas terrorists and their missile attacks against Israeli civilians.” More about that later, after the clips.
First of all, let me just say that the following in no way condones the reprehensible practice of firing rockets at civilian targets in Israel (or any targets, for that matter) by Hamas. But let’s get real here. From 2001 when the Hamas missile attacks started until the present, despite having lobbed thousands of evidently near useless rockets across the border, the grand total of fifteen Israelis have been killed. That works out to about two people a year being killed by missile attacks. Two. The chances of being killed in a routine traffic accident are hundreds of times greater (the number of road accident victims in Israel for 2008 stood at 444).
To launch a carefully planned military campaign — with a plainly fraudulent causa belli it should be noted — that involved raining death from above with a high-tech “shock and awe” campaign of relentless bombing (utilizing illegal white phosphorous munitions, no less), followed by a brutal rampage through the streets of Gaza with heavily armoured tank and infantry corps, leveling markets, houses, mosques, schools… and well, just about anything in their path it seems, can hardly be called “defensive” in any sense of the word. And the end result of this grotesquely disproportionate response? The reduction of an already miserably forsaken ghetto to hellish rubble, at least 1,033 people killed (including 335 children and 98 women), over 4,800 injured, and many more thousands left homeless refugees.
Clearly, this wasn’t a “defensive war” but rather, a savage and vindictive retribution — in other words, collective punishment against the people of Gaza. At the outset of the war, Israel said that it was striking at the Palestinians to “teach them a lesson”… Well, they certainly did that — but surely it was one that will do little to advance the cause of peace that the Israeli government claims to want so desperately.
Red Tory v.3.0.3 
Israel’s haven’t been killed in Rocket attacks because they have developed a highly effective civilian defence mechanism.
In Sderot, every 50 mteres you will find a shelter. Every home, school, business must have a shellert.The death toll has been low because Israelis place life above everything else.
No child in Israel is ever used as a human shield. Can the same be said in Gaza?
I find the “human shield” argument to be highly suspect.
How big is Gaza? Comparisons made in the media said it was about twice the size of Washington, DC (25 miles long and 7.5 miles wide at most) with a population of 1.5 million people. It’s hard to imagine any “military installation” (if one can call them such) that wouldn’t be in close proximity to civilians.
The death toll has been low because Israelis place life above everything else.
Correction: “…place ISRAELI lives…” Palestinian lives are worthless. Apparently.
Has anyone ever asked themselves why they open comment on Gaza, Israel, Lebanon with, “Israel has the right to defend herself” or (as above) “First of all, Palestinians/rockets/blah, blah, blah”!
Fact: There is a UN charter which Israel has violated for more than half a century. Fact: Damage from rockets fired at Isreal are just the latest red herring to justify genocide by Israel.
For Christ sake, lets stop the cowing! Demanding Israel adhere to international treaty, return stolen lands and property and acting like they live in this century with the rest of us is not something we need to first humbly beg permission for and then precede with hand rubbing, genuflection.
Go to
http://www.alternatefocus.org
and click on screening room then scroll down looking on the right hand side for “History of a Conflict”. Understand what the problem is and learn the truth.
Red, we all shuffle up to the Israeli ‘podium’ and it’s got to stop. Israel and her western world supporters/thugs/punks/murderers/character assassins prevent rightful solution. The way to change that is to give a third finger ‘salute’ to the cutthroat bastards and demand Israel shove the proaganda up their ass then get on with the job of first, adhering to the UN Charter, then get to the negotiation table.
In the meantime
BOYCOTT ISRAEL – yes, if everyone checked the label first then did not buy that bag of oranges that single gesture could help bring about the same results in did in South Africa.
http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.html
Robert — You should know perfectly well why I prefaced my remarks with that statement. The retorts of Israeli apologists are nothing if not entirely predictable. So yes, it’s almost obligatory to include a disclaimer of that sort before being accused of being blind to the missile attacks (that clearly violate the international humanitarian law prohibitions) or being smeared as an “Israel-hater” or an “anti-Semite” and so on. That kind of name-calling however does little to advance the discussion, so I prefer to nip it in the bud and preemptively short-circuit that kind of nonsense.
I am so happy my wife wants me to buy her a Baby Eagle, made in Israel. I just don’t know what else I buy from Israel but at least that one purchase can defeat the idiotic and racist assholes who call for boycotts.
Anon already said it, The Israelis build shelters everywhere and they scramble for cover every time a rocket is fired. It takes a real idiot to say the death toll is what matters. It’s the intent that matters and Hamas intends to kill every Jew it can (note Jew, not “Israeli”, that’s who you guys defend, who Denis Coderre, your defence critic marches with). Israel intends to kill every Hamas member it can. It’s a small difference to you, I’m sure. I know Robert pretty much agrees with Hamas, parroting the “stolen land” crapola, demanding compliance with the UN, a one-country-one-vote joke dominated by racist regimes and disgusting dictatorships. What else, he removal of Jews from “Palestine”? To where, who cares, right? Europe where they killed 6 million of them? How about rural Saskatchewan? It doesn’t matter to the racists. Once again, align yourselves with those people if you want, I’ll take my chances supporting Israel.
Ah, right on cue. Racists now… LOL
Hmmm. Funny thing, but I was listening the other day to an interview with a professor from Ben Gurion University who said that he (and most people in the area) don’t bother going to the bomb shelters because: a) there’s not usually enough time to get there (usually 2-3 minutes); b) it’s an inconvenient hassle; and c) he doesn’t take the attacks all that seriously anymore, but just shrugs them off.
Plenty of places in Gaza that are not near civilians.
Ypu ignorance, of judging without knowing the terrain or of what you speak is astounding.
Ask Michael Ignatieff, he has been to Gaza. It is not house upon house without anything else.
Worth a read: “How to think about the missiles that terrorize Sderot”
Anonymouse — Considering the IDF were leveling farms and blowing up orchards, you’re correct that it isn’t entirely house upon house (although it is one of the most densely populated places in the world — not being astoundingly ignorant, I’m sure you were aware of that).
Gene — Very interesting. Thanks for that.
You anti-Semitic bigot RED. How dare you speak ill of Israel you racist.
Oops. I thought I was Ezra or WK for a minute there.
Carry on.
TWDIKG.
By the way, Anonymouse, with regards to using civilians as “human shields” what about the fact that many of Israel’s military installations are located in or near civilian areas… Hatzor Israeli Air Force Base, for example (very near kibbutz Hatzor) or Ben Gurion Air Force Base, which is actually attached to the international airport of the same name. By your definition aren’t the Israelis using civilian “human shields” then… Or they would be if the Palestinians had any serious offensive capabilities. Hmmm.
Israelis have no problem using human shields. They seem to prefer using Palestinian civilians rather than Israelis, but human shields none-the-less.
I’ll take my chances supporting Israel.
And what chances are those? You’re sitting, benumbed by psychotropic medication, in a rubber room in BC, aren’t you?
Boycotting Israel will have to entail boycotting all the ignoramuses who actively prevent everyone from having any discussions about this.
Fat chance of that.
Fact: Damage from rockets fired at Isreal are just the latest red herring to justify genocide by Israel.
I don’t think it’s genocide. Why would Israel establish a medical clinic outside of Gaza for Palestinians, or want its own citizens to know that they are sending fresh fruits and vegetables into the area, or even want people to know how monstrous Hamas was towards its own civilians. Is this all it PR and spin? Possibly. But it is for the international community as much as it is for themselves. They don’t want to believe they’re wantonly causing misery.
Something’s more subtle than genocide is at work — it’s not the desire to destroy the other side as much as it is the desire to keep their own people safe. Most people would view that as a good thing, but taken to an extreme, this can develop into an indifference towards what happens to people on the other side. Think of it a little like those movies about soliders trapped by Zulu warriors (or the modern equivalent of zombie flicks, and someone even cited the film Black Hawk Down about US soliders in Somalia). We sympathize for those poor souls fending off, but as an audience we’re indifferent towards the people they’re blowing away. We don’t know why they’re attacking, they’re just a mass, a horde. Think of it a bit like Iraq, where even with the abuses and the civilian casualties, when politicians cite the reasons for leaving, it’s always military casualties — usually their own.
Just think, if Israel would have came back with a “measured” response the palestinean people would really be in trouble. 6,000 rockets back into the refugee camps just like the 6,000 rockets into Israel wouldn’t be a good thing, would it?
But, but, but … a single Israeli life is 100 times more valuable than that of a Palestinian. Ergo, there was no recourse but to attack Gaza. The Israeli administration was FORCED to do it.
(Don’t you love the excessive use of the word ‘forced’ in contemporary rhetoric?)
Something’s more subtle than genocide is at work
Damn right there is. It’s to make the eventuality of a viable state for the Palestinians impossible. Further radicalising the Palestinians is a way for Israel to constantly maintain the moral high ground, at least to the insensate Westerners who never bother to think about the situation until an event like this.
“6,000 rockets back into the refugee camps”
but they managed to achieve the same disproportioante effect without resorting to your sick fantasy….
KEvron
“disproportioante”
heh. looks like portugese….
KEvron
“It’s to make the eventuality of a viable state for the Palestinians impossible.”
or to create a continued crisis that would warrant $2bil plus annually in us aid.
KEvron
Goddamn those religous zealots, alway saying crazy shit…
(my wife will be pissed, I left the butter out again!)
“RAT”! Right on cue;
again, go to –
http://www.alternatefocus.org
– and learn, fool.
As to my being a rascist, you’re right on that count. I have a pronounced, unapologetic dislike for ‘certain’ groups of people. Some happen to be Asian gang members. Some happen to be motorcycle gangsters. And sure as God made little green apples, some are Israeli ‘apologists’.
And I’ll be Goddamned though, if I’ll ever cower to some freak screaming at me, telling me I’m a rascist because that individual can’t stand the truth about themselves.
I watched that a couple of weeks ago. It’s a very powerful film. I doubt however that folks like “The Rat” or Mr. Levant will pay much heed to it, as it requires viewing the Palestinians as actual human beings.
To me it is much simpler than so many make it out to be. A chunk of Palestine was annexed to create a new country for the Jews. Immediately the Palestinians resisted (it took a war to even get the borders of the country in place). They have been resisting ever since – which has only caused the Israelis to become more and more ruthless in the ways and means that they have used to keep a grip on the territory (including expanding it against international law a couple of times).
How can anyone be surprised that certain Palestinian factions have never stopped resisting and striking back to the extent they can? If the agenda of those in power in Israel is truly to try and ensure that a two state solution can never be achieved, they are not just ruthless hawks, but delusional fools. Short of complete anialation of the Palestinian population, it is clearly the only solution that can lead to any sort of lasting peace….and bombing the crap out of Gaza seems highly unlikely to improve the climate for negotiating such a thing. Depressing.
If you have the time, I’d strongly recommend watching the videos posted a while back providing an explanation of the origins of the Israeli state and history of the conflict up to the quite recent past.
Thanks RT I did watch the first of those when you first posted them – will try to find the time to watch the other two. I realize I glossed over the pre 1948 history of the issue above, but the early Zionists themselves understood full well that they were working to usurp (purchase, what have you) land that was largely not in their control at that time – and there was a war in 1949 to force through the actual creation of the new state.
A lot of us (me certainly) have tended to set the clock ticking on the situation in Israel post WWII, but it’s important I think to grasp the earlier developments that led up to that point to fully appreciate how badly screwed over the Palestinians have been throughout the recent history (relatively speaking) of the region. I guess my point in drawing attention to those lectures is that there’s absolutely nothing simple or straightforward about the mess. It’s unbelievably convoluted and the conventional narratives that we’re fed need to be thoroughly questioned because, quite frankly, there’s a lot of expensive propaganda out there.
As to my being a rascist, you’re right on that count. I have a pronounced, unapologetic dislike for ‘certain’ groups of people. Some happen to be Asian gang members. Some happen to be motorcycle gangsters. And sure as God made little green apples, some are Israeli ‘apologists’.
I remember having a conversation with a coworker who dislikes a certain racial group because of a series of things that happened to him in his native country. I noted that what happened to him had more to do with class and money than it did with something inante in the group. The people who behaved badly towards him did so more out of the fact that they were poor than because of the colour of their skin. “You’d probably have more in common with a middle class person of that race than you would a poor person of your own race.” He agreed. Money and environment are more important than skin colour in these things.
There are a number of things that irritate me about racism — how people are stripped of their individuality because they belong to a group; and hate, what I dislike above most things is the irrational hate. It might be naive, but I want more humanity, more compassion.
I can understand why people would defend Israel’s actions. I don’t agree all of the time with their arguments, but I can see where it’s coming from, the defense and Israel’s recent actions — it has more to do with fear than outright hatred. One of the founding fathers of the USA once described slave owning as a necessary evil. He likened it to holding a snake by the throat — once you had it you had no choice but to hold on to it or else it would bite. Fear justifies to the person holding the snake, a certain amount of brutality. (Most snakes, though, just slither away instead of going for any sort of revenge, just as slaves were more likely to escape than murder their masters.)
Hatred won’t end this conflict (not unless one side isn’t willing to utterly massacre the other). Overcoming fear, and destroying the sources of it will.
Red
You are dead wrong about Ben Gurion Airforce base.
Does not exist.
No IDF activity in or around Ben Gurion International Airport.
Just more bluster and anti-Israel talk from you.
You are dead wrong about Ben Gurion Airforce base.
Does not exist.
Not, now it doesn’t. It was moved in August of 2008
More on the move here.
Mouseketeer — Big deal. The principle still applies. Pick another base. There’s lots and lots and LOTS of them.
“But let’s get real here. From 2001 when the Hamas missile attacks started until the present, despite having lobbed thousands of evidently near useless rockets across the border, the grand total of fifteen Israelis have been killed. That works out to about two people a year being killed by missile attacks. Two. The chances of being killed in a routine traffic accident are hundreds of times greater (the number of road accident victims in Israel for 2008 stood at 444). ”
If you want to get real you first need to consider that not all the rockets fired by Hamas have made it to Israel – meaning they fell within Gaza and are likely responsible for some damage although more likely tunnels than human beings.
Then you must consider intent – it’s not that Hamas didn’t want to kill innocent citizens just that they are particularly efficient at it.
Hamas uses child soldiers and then wails about the number of dead children.
Israel is certainly not “pure & innocent” but if someone were to shoot a pellet gun at your house repeatedly day in, day out; one day you would get a gun and shoot back.
To pretend otherwise is bullshit pure and simple!
So, by your logic if someone shoots a pellet gun at my house (missing 99 times out of a 100), then I should blow up their house and kill everyone inside? Somehow I think there might be a more humane solution to the problem.
I didn’t say there wasn’t a better solution or that a more appropriate level of response was possible.
I said that retaliation is understandable …and expected.
Hamas knows that it will be responded to so why did it risk all those lives? Because it believes in the value of martyrs.
Red,
You’ve bastardized SD’s analogy to make your point. However, you’ve missed the larger point that SD and Anon are making. I’ve made it many times myself, and one of the rubes on your thread has invariably run away from this main point by poking at some inconsequential argument.
The point is this: Palestine (and Lebanon) possess the power to stop the attacks from Israel, if they would themselves, fight to stop the terrorist groups shooting a “pee-shooter” at Israel. Israel does not have any record whatsoever of acting with intent to massacre other states or nations. Whenever they have fought, they have fought for their survival, not for the annihilation of another country or people. So if the Pals and Lebs want to stop Israel from attacking their country, they should stop the two organizations that are bringing the fight to their soil.
One could argue all day about whether the response is measured or not–I didn’t know that there was a rule book measuring and defining acceptable levels for acts of war and military defense, but maybe your friend (who’s posted previously and is all hung up on International Law) can bring in an expert from the fabled “International Police Force” to answer that one for us–but that’s not going to help anyone. Israel will continue to respond however the hell they want to respond and no amount of whining from you or shrieking from women and children in any country is going to change that. That set of individuals does not define Israel foreign policy and/or military strategy.
Yes, Israel’s actions may not be measured to yours and Jack Layton’s liking, but then I’m positive that there are many policies that you and Jack may approve of that Israel does not. That’s why each of you have your own country in which you can decide these things.
In speaking of how unmeasured Israel’s response is, I’ve never heard you talk about how the IDF have had to physically remove Israeli residents from parts of the disputed territories as a result of the Israel gov’t making conssessions to the PLO, etc. And how the IDF has faced violence from their own people in trying to make an effort for peace. How often has the Palestinian or Lebanon gov’t made more than a token or verbal commitment to hold up their end of the bargain, only to do nothing in reality?
For a guy who makes a living rambling on and on about how certain countries shouldn’t get involved in the problems of other countries, you certainly have a lot of opinions for Israel about the remedy for what ails her.
So to get back to the very basic point: Israel, in its sovereignty, will continue to do what it wants to do. And if Palestine and Lebenon are serious about not getting bombed back to the stone age, they need to take matters into their own hands and shut down the terrorist organizations within their own borders. Israel has proved time and time again that they are a willing and cooperative partner for realistic peace. However, Palestine and Lebanon have not.
Point taken RT. It is of course extremely complex. My point was to try and say that – at the base of it though, it is actually pretty simple. Palestinians has no country and feel (with some justification), that Israel is the reason why. Whatever got them to where they are now, unless and until they get some land and autonomy, no amount of force (except perhaps complete annihilation) is going to stop the resistance.
“Israel has proved time and time again that they are a willing and cooperative partner for realistic peace. However, Palestine and Lebanon have not.”
Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha…..(I’ll stop here, coz this is going to go on for a while) BTW: loved the Orwellian use of “realistic”.
Ian, why don’t you point out some of the examples of Israel proving themselves to be dishonest in the peace negotiation process.
BTW, “Ah, ha, ha, ha…” does not pass for an intelligent argument, at least not where I’m from.
Israel does not have any record whatsoever of acting with intent to massacre other states or nations.
Yes it does. It massacres Palestinians.
Hmm…Numbers 10, 2-18. *rrrrip*
does not pass for an intelligent argument, at least not where I’m from.
Yeah, where Bryan’s from, getting rogered by the pastor is what passes for intelligent argument.
You know what ti-guy. Since having mopped the floor with you on several occasions, I have yet to see you brave enough to step up for a real debate. Since then it’s just been immature jabs and name-calling. Even those arguing your side can see the vacuum in your debating skills.
Bryan,
Perhaps you start by telling me what you mean by “realistic peace”? How does that differ from say unrealistic peace?
Unrealistic peace means Israel giving up control of Jerusalem (never going to happen). Realistic peace means Israel withdrawing from the Gaza strip.
Since having mopped the floor with you on several occasions, I have yet to see you brave enough to step up for a real debate.
That’s right. I’m a coward. Screechy fundagelical hermaphrodites creep me out.
Bryan,
Perhaps you are unclear on the concept so I’ll type slowly:
As horrible as Hamas is and Hezbollah is, nothing they have done warrants the IDF using white phosphorus and violating international law. Nothing warrants them targeting civilians.
Here’s the thing, Bryan, if Israel can target civilians with the military technology it has in order to “defend” itself, then so does Hamas and Hezbollah have that right with the military technology it has – crappy rockets and suicide bombers.
Ironic that it was just the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising – Israel is treating the people of Gaza as the Germans treated the residents of the Ghetto. And the people of the both those ghettos are fightin back by any means against those oppressing them.
There more than a little irony and sadness in all that. Apparently George Santayana was right.
Mike,
(I type very fast, so try to keep up.) As I said earlier, it doesn’t matter if you think Israel’s responses is measured or “warranted.” It’s they’re response, they’re not accountable to anyone for it, including you.
Israel isn’t whining and crying about the crappy rockets, they’re simply firing their own.
Palestine and Lebanon are the one’s whining. So once again, the point remains, if they don’t like it, get rid of Hezbollah and Hamas. That will go a long way to solving their problems.
Bryan,
I should probably just let you keep digging yourself into further into the whole you are already in (the faster you type, the quicker you sink, don’t forget), but you are truly drinking the Kool Aid if you think those in power in Israel have ever been honest to the outside world, or their own people (in the peace process or otherwise). It’s pretty much all propaganda – as one would expect from a country at war – and of course the same can be said of Hamas and Fatah.
I mean there are just so many examples of spin and propaganda coming out of both sides that it is absurd (and yes laughable) to say that either side has ever been anything close to honest. But since you asked, here are just a couple of examples I was able to quickly grab by googling Israeli Propaganda:
“Later the official claimed that “our soldiers were shot at from inside the school”. Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees. But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that “they shot from inside the school”, and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact. ”
“Long-term preparation, careful gathering of information, secret discussions, operational deception and the misleading of the public – all these stood behind the Israel Defense Forces “Cast Lead” operation against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip, which began Saturday morning. The disinformation effort, according to defense officials, took Hamas by surprise and served to significantly increase the number of its casualties in the strike. ”
This last qoute comes from Haaretz BTW….
Ian,
I think you’re confused about what I’m talking about when I say “Israel has proved time and time again that they are a willing and cooperative partner for realistic peace.”
This does not imply that they are perfect, or that their soldiers, in the course of their engagements, have never acted improperly. Certainly if you have read any of my previous posts on this subject, you would see that I have agreed that both have happened. Israel engages in spin and Israel’s soldiers do what the soldiers of any army will inevitably do: something bad, something uncalled for.
What that statement does imply is that Israel, in the context of the Middle East peace process (funny name for a process that’s been anything but peaceful 🙂 has proved to be a reliable partner, in that when they agree to an arrangement, they attempt to abide within the structure of that arrangement, or when they agree to a ceasefire, they attempt to cease firing.
If you examine the history of conflict, almost all conflicts are started by Arabs/Palestinians/Lebanese agitating Israel.
Although Israel is not perfect, one cannot contend that were Hamas/Hezbollah to stop firing rockets into Israel, that the IDF would continue to attack Palestine/Lebanon. Israel attacks the terrorists in these countries because they are being attacked.
IF THE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL STOP, WE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL WILL STOP ATTACKING BACK.
Catch-22
Actually Bryan, look up thread. This was the challenge you presented me:
“why don’t you point out some of the examples of Israel proving themselves to be dishonest in the peace negotiation process.”
While granted the examples I provided were not completely specific to the peace making process – it is all related – and surely I met your challenge easily.
“If you examine the history of conflict, almost all conflicts are started by Arabs/Palestinians/Lebanese agitating Israel.”
Bollocks (and no I am not goingto dredge up specific examples).
Ian,
The examples you related were not related to the peace process. We’re not interested in every shoplifting and vandalism incident in Gaza. We’re talking about the negotiation of peace, which takes place between the leaders of nations, not between soldiers.
The settlements are an illegal violation of previous “peace agreements”…
We’re not interested in every shoplifting and vandalism incident in Gaza.
What a prick.
Bryan,
Did you read my posts? It would seem not, but still I will urge you to now read the Haaretz article I qouted from above:
“Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html
Not related to the peace process, huh. It’s all related – and if you don’t even understand that much, well I can see why Ti Guy doesn’t even bother trying anymore.
Using a child as a human-shield in Gaza would certainly be an exercise in futility.
Ian — I think the best way of dealing Bryan is to take a page from Ti-Guy, so to speak.
Thessalonians 1:7-9 *rrrrrrip*
Ian,
Did you even read your own freaking article? Or did you just see ‘Israel’ and ‘disinformation’ in the headline and paste the link.
Yes, it appears during the ceasefire, that Israel kept on planning their military operations. That shouldn’t really come as a surprise. Would you expect them to throw away all historical evidence and suppose that Hamas would never attack them again? That wouldn’t even make any sense. So big deal.
Then Israel found a tunnel, they believed would be used to attack them and they shut it down. Were they supposed to wait for the attack to happen and then shut it down, minus a couple of soldiers?
“On November 19, following dozens of Qassam rockets and mortar rounds which exploded on Israeli soil, the plan was brought for Barak’s final approval. Last Thursday, on December 18, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and the defense minister met at IDF headquarters in central Tel Aviv to approve the operation.
However, they decided to put the mission on hold to see whether Hamas would hold its fire after the expiration of the ceasefire.”
You see that. What have I been telling you. If Hamas launches rockets, then Israel attacks. If they don’t launch rockets and are shut-down, we have every reason to believe that Israel won’t attack.
That night, in speaking to the media, sources in the Prime Minister’s Bureau said that “if the shooting from Gaza continues, the showdown with Hamas would be inevitable.” On the weekend, several ministers in Olmert’s cabinet inveighed against him and against Barak for not retaliating for Hamas’ Qassam launches.
The PM’s own cabinet was upset at him for not retaliating. What does this tell you. Hamas is throwing the first punch!
Use your head. If Israel’s objective was to annihilate Palestinians in Gaza, there wouldn’t be a Palestinian alive in Gaza today. Israel could easily achieve that objective. Obviously it is not their objective to attack and kill Palestinians. It is their objective to defend themselves. It is however the Palestinians objective to destroy the state of Israel.
I wouldn’t talk Red, you don’t even have the nerve to get up for an ass kicking any more. You just post a few skewed rants and then poke around the edges, waiting for others to do your dirty work.
Thank God you lefty’s now have someone credible on the other side of the table for us to debate with. Maybe now you can pick up on a few decent talking points from Iggy and elevate the debate. Maybe he can even set a few of you straight.
To quote your fearless, and refreshingly intelligent leader, “…Israel has a record of compliance, concern and respect for the laws of war and human rights.” -Michael Ignatieff (Oct. 14, 2006)
Good grief and good night.
I know I shouldn’t bother Red, but I’m going to go at it one more time before I turn in:
“Yes, it appears during the ceasefire, that Israel kept on planning their military operations.`
We were talking about dishonesty (something you brought up, but seem to have avoided ever since). The quote I pulled described: operational deception and the misleading of the public
“Use your head. If Israel’s objective was to annihilate Palestinians in Gaza, there wouldn’t be a Palestinian alive in Gaza today. ”
Never said that was their objective. And BTW the November Qassam attacks from Gaza were actually a response to Israel breaking the ceasefire Nov 5th:
“A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.
Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured.“
Bryan — Sorry, but I don’t feel like wasting my time arguing with an obtuse, sanctimonious dipshit like you.
Oh, and by the way, I don’t “make a living rambling on and on…” here. In fact, so far this year I’ve made precisely $0.00 from this blog. If anything it’s a HUGE waste of time and quite thoroughly counter-productive to my livelihood.
“I know I shouldn’t Red, but I just can’t resist:”
I think that Israel may disagree with you on calling that dishonest, and instead call it keeping information from your enemy. I’m sure that Hamas kept planning and strategizing during that time too (obviously, they were building a tunnel, duh) so does that make them dishonest as well? No, it means that they were doing what we’d all expect them to do, continuing to plan for the destruction of Israel. It was a ceasefire, not a cease-to-carry-out-one’s-reason-for-existing.
Ian, if that’s Israel’s big lie in all of this, calling the ceasefire and then continuing the plan for it’s defense against terrorists, then I guess you’ve nailed it. I guess had they not been “dishonestly” planning, then Hamas would never have attacked again and we’d all be talking about Middle East peace! I hope you don’t believe that.
And if you’re big achievement is you think you’ve found an incident where Israel was dishonest and that somehow defeats my whole argument, then think again.
When I talk about dishonesty in the peace process, I’m talking about dishonesty at a much bigger level.
Dishonesty is literally months after Israel is given its territory–in present day Israel, by the British and by the rest of the world (UN)–the Arab world amassing armies to destroy it.
Dishonesty is Egypt abusing it’s control of the Suez to cut off Israel’s trade routes with half the world.
Dishonesty is Israel ceding authority to the PA of parts of the West Bank and Gaza during the Oslo peace process in order to provide the Palestinians with the basis for which to establish “order and good government” with the hope that this stability would provide a government that could teach it’s people to accept Israel’s right to exist, only to have the new government use its new found authority to instead promote and finance terrorist attacks on Israel.
You can’t and won’t defeat my central point: Israel is by far the most honest partner in this process and the Palestinians are by far the most dishonest partner.
And yes, I know that Israel is not perfect and they’ve done something bad somewhere somehow and I don’t need to hear about every little incident.
Put together an argument that deals with the conflict at the larger scale, taking into account more than one isolated event, and maybe you’ll have a credible rebuttal. But continue to chip away with little anecdotes here and there about “how evil Israel is” and a distorted logic that says because Palestinians can’t defeat Israel they are immune to reciprocal attacks, and you’ll come off sounding stupid. And you’re probably not stupid.
Sorry Red, I thought because you had this blog that you welcomed public debate. My mistake. I’ll leave you to your cheerleaders.
Hey, can’t say you haven’t made any money now.
Israel isn’t whining and crying about the crappy rockets, they’re simply firing their own.
Palestine and Lebanon are the one’s whining. So once again, the point remains, if they don’t like it, get rid of Hezbollah and Hamas. That will go a long way to solving their problems.
Hmm, lets see how it sounds now:
Israel Hamas isn’t whining and crying about the crappy rockets conditions the IDF makes them live in in Gaza, they’re simply firing back their own rockets.
Palestine and LebanonIsrael are is the one’s whining about how it has a right to defend itself. So once again, the point remains, if they don’t like it, get rid of Hezbollah and Hamas stop treating the people in Gaza and the West Bank as sub-humans living in an open air prison and Warsaw Ghetto-like environment. That will go a long way to solving their problems.
Again, the Germans never bombed the English into getting rid of Churchill during the blitz and the Allies never bombed the Germans into surrender with the firebombing of Dresden and Hamburg. Both likely extended the war.
Israel is strengthening Hamas and Hezbollah not weakening it. Not what they wanted to do I’m sure.
crap strikethroughs didn’t work
“Israel is by far the most honest partner in this process and the Palestinians are by far the most dishonest partner.“
Sorry Bryan, but your central premise is just equivocal nonsense and does`t stand up to any sort of impartial assessment of the situation. Neither side is without blame here, but no one could argue that the Israeli`s don`t have the most blood on their hands (by far) .
Now I am off to try and make a living in the midst of the toatal collapse of the word economy as we know it. What fun!