Put it to a Vote

libs-online

First of all, let me say that I have no particular problem should the Liberal caucus decide, in their infinite wisdom, to appoint a new “permanent” leader of the party. But seeing as Bob Rae has shown no indication of gracefully withdrawing from the race (in which case, the matter would be a moot point), it’s reasonable to suggest that all members should have a say in the outcome.

Simply working out matters in caucus (“behind closed doors” as it’s usually described) would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving many members of the Liberal grassroots organization feeling disenfranchised from the process. This is especially so, given that the membership in certain regions of the country is currently unrepresented (or at least under-represented) by elected members of parliament. Creating angry or bitter feelings of resentment amongst the grassroots is probably the last thing in the world the Liberals need right now, which makes a compelling argument for putting the matter to a vote of some kind or other.

The question then remains is a twofold one: the best manner in which to achieve this; and, the optimal timing involved. Actually, it’s a threefold one, if we consider whether there should be an interim leader, or go straight to the election of a permanent leader.

So, let’s address that last aspect first. While appointing an interim or “caretaker” leader may well be the technically correct thing to do and even the appropriate measure under normal circumstances, these are not such times. Make no mistake that the Liberal Party is on the brink of crisis — it’s bankrupt, dispirited, in a state of chaos by all accounts. Moreover, public support is at the lowest level in living memory — from an electoral standpoint, it’s a disaster looking for a place to happen. Strong leadership and a commitment to begin making the needed reforms to rehabilitate the party are needed now, not five or six months from now (just before summer… so that will probably translate into not much happening for 8-10 months or even a year).

Working on the assumption that, in fairness, the interim leader couldn’t be one of the men in the race, it’s also perhaps worth pointing out that such an appointment would bring the total number of leaders of the LPC, between Chrétien and the next one, to five in as many years! Another drawback to the appointment of an interim leader would be that it effectively takes the possibility of an election off the table. Now, I don’t think that provoking an election or heading into the polls would be a judicious decision for the Liberals at the moment, but it’s important that the threat of one at least be conceivable and credible if this minority parliament is to function the way it’s supposed to (rather than as the Conservative majority that Mr. Harper seems to envision it being).

Continuing to work backwards, the next part of the question is timing. In light of the urgent circumstances and the need to restore some sense of order and continuity to the leadership of the party, the more immediate the timing the better it seems to me. Waiting until the convention in May to resolve the matter just doesn’t seem like a realistic option — “untenable” as Dominic LeBlanc put it. In part, the timing relates to both the first and last part of the question — whether there should be an interim leader and the method of voting chosen. If Liberals are willing to break the rules (which they’re perfectly entitled to do) and move to a different voting arrangement, then the matter of timing becomes more flexible.

Which brings us to how best to express the “democratic” will of the membership. My preference is for OMOV via an online vote, as this would give the most immediate expression of intention to the largest number of people in the most direct way possible. The feasibility of this shouldn’t be all that difficult to work out, although there are some legitimate concerns with this method of voting based on the past experience of other parties. I’m certain that the necessary precautions could be taken to ensure that it’s secure, tamper-proof (gotta watch out for those wily Conservative miscreants, you know). However, if the technological hurdles can’t be overcome in time, there are other low-tech means of achieving something similar that may involve votes being taken at individual riding associations across the country, or something of that nature.

As I’ve said before, the important thing is to get this thing wrapped up and settled before parliament resumes at the end January. Then Harper will have to face an Official Opposition with a legitimate leader that has the full backing and support of his party. The importance of this over this next critical period of time cannot be underestimated.

53 Replies to “Put it to a Vote”

  1. What’s this? The same party that was only too willing to install a PM “elected” by a socialist/separatist cabal only last week is now suddenly concerned about the “democracy” of such a move, but only when it affects the Liberal Party of Toronto, and not when it affects millions of Canadians. “If you don’t like the Liberal Party’s principles, just wait for a while, and we’ll get some new ones.”

  2. SDC must have received the requisite talking points. I just heard an AM radio host, (much too polite a title), babble the same lines.

    Yawn indeed.

  3. I’m leaning towards “National AGM Day”, with all riding associations voting on one or two days. It would ensure no “Conservative trouble-makers” crash the parties, while allowing new members to join (by a certain cutoff). It would be pure democracy, and would have the added benefit of reps from each group giving speeches to drum up support for their guy: reps from the commissions could present their opposing cases, as well as a “main” rep from each group.

    It would be as interesting as a well-contested DSM, but with no delegates. At the same time we would vote on our delegates for the Vancouver Policy Convention – which should still happen…

    And WHY are you up so early???

  4. Not a question of being up early so much as not having gone to bed yet. (I had a little power nap after dinner…) Lots of work to do.

  5. Well, RT, do you have an explanation for why you believe that the same undemocratic process that your party was willing to shove down the throats of Canadians shouldn’t be used to determine the leader of the Liberal Party of Toronto? If it’s wrong now, it was wrong then. I guess the only thing Liberals really care about is power.

  6. Hmm….it’s alright to form a coalition in the backrooms without consideration of how supporters felt prior.

    It’s alright to play backroom games during the last convention instead of doing the voting rounds.

    ….now they’re worried about democracy?

  7. How democratic is it for a party with the minority of the seats to govern like a majority? People don’t want another election. How else should this have been played?

    Fine, support Iggy or support Rae, but this infighting is starting to get a little pathological. It’s like the story of Solomon and the baby, except both mothers are willing to split the child in half. Please stop… or at least be more civil.

  8. “How democratic is it for a party with the minority of the seats to govern like a majority?”

    Funny, I don’t recall hearing anything like this when Chretien got elected with 36% or 37% of the vote in ’93. But, I guess, that was then, and this is now, right, Sharon?

  9. Sigh…we cannot change our rules. Elections Canada requires that we stick to our constitution. Period. And we can’t change our constitution until May.

    I know you hate when I say that, but too bad. A basic reading of the law in question confirms I am right. The media is annoying me immensely on this point. I understand that you all may not be able to research it, but a media organization should be.

    Oh, and we aren’t bankrupt. We aren’t wealthy, but the party isn’t bankrupt.

    So, my source confirms that we are still required to have a leadership convention and the possible solution is for the National Executive to vote on a leader. (Caucus has no vote, just a consult. Rules, people….) (National Exec isn’t necessarily pro-Iggy, they were elected years ago, at the same time as Dion.)

    The other guys all agree to resign and then the person remaining is the only one who is on the ballot for the national same day DSMs, and then the convention.

    It requires the candidates to agree, and it requires the frontrunner to give the other two whatever they want. Which could be a stretch considering how they are getting along.

    Personally I am pushing to move up the national one day DSMs to the first week of Jan. Membership cut-off is Xmas, maybe NYs. The winner of that day is the leader, and it is confirmed at the convention. (This works with two, since one will get 50+1) That we can do legally and quickly, and it works.

    Personally I don’t understand the rush and I am still uncommitted. This could wait until after holidays.

  10. Funny, I don’t recall hearing anything like this when Chretien got elected with 36% or 37% of the vote in ‘93. But, I guess, that was then, and this is now, right, Sharon?

    It was 41.24% in 1993.

    I also said seats.

    Don’t let the facts get in the way of your outrage. Have fun.

  11. I also realize that I should have phrased it as — “How democratic is it for the governing party without the majority of seats to govern as though they dominate parliament?”

    😛

  12. rED, You must admit the Liberal circus is a lie a minute,first we have Iggy, Rae and all the Lib M.P.s signed on to the coalition telling everyone Steffi would be the best P.M. ever.Now we have Iggy saying after he signed the contract his heart was not really behind Dion,Rae has some backroom deal going with Layton to join the Libs with the N.D.P. and take over the Government but most Liberals are blind to that plot.Finally the Liberal party wants to appoint Iggy head of the party without a vote.Par for the course,and you expect Canadians to have any confidence in this clown show. P.S. ReD the reason I spell your name that way,is on the surface you seem intelligent but underneath your a little off kilter.

  13. Hey, Conservative trolls…shut up for a minute and listen: How political parties function has nothing to do with the constitutionally-defined processes of democracy in this country.

    As for the rest of your calumnies: just shut up altogether.

  14. Sorry, I’ve been away for a week, and missed all the fun.

    I tried to write a bit of satire casting Harper as (inconceivable!) Vizzini from The Princess Bride. I’m new to writing satire but I tried my best.

  15. Canadian wingnuttery is too earnest and angry to be easily satirised. If only Stockwell Day were still leading the pack.

  16. eVaNz — You must admit the Liberal circus is a lie a minute

    Hey, have you seen that comedy duo of Harper and Flaherty? Talk about a LIE a minute! They can’t keep their stories together one day to the next.

  17. Aurelia — Elections Canada requires that we stick to our constitution. Period.

    Can you point me to the specific provision in the Canada Elections Act or the Regulations where this is stated? I’ve looked and certainly can’t seem to locate where it says any such thing. Thanks.

  18. Gees, if you guys invent any more acronyms we’ll need a new alphabet. Is it really too tough to actually spell something in it’s entirety?

    To have to crack open an acronym dictionary just to realize that you blokes are just suckin wind is more than this old crock can cope with especially when it has to do with something as thoroughly distasteful as Canadian politics.

  19. You must admit the Liberal circus is a lie a minute

    Lying about lying. Conservatives really are special.

    All politicians are dishonest, in some fashion; in the end, you have to evaluate the lies for their substantive consequences. And Harper’s mismanagement of the country’s finances is what’s really at stake here. The rest of this is just a political circus resulting from a disaster that caught the arrogant Stephen Harper off guard.

    Remember….most serious people believe the fiscal update was one the most outrageous reports a government has ever tabled.

  20. I have no idea what’s going on. It changes daily. But I’m not happy. At all. If the Liberal caucus thinks they can decide arbitrarily who will lead this party, they should be prepared to pay for this party.

    I make a donation each month ($100). I’ll be cancelling that if this whole process of replacing a leader without consultation happens.

  21. RT, some personal issues are making it difficult for me to get more than this:

    http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=gen&document=ec90560&dir=bkg&lang=e&textonly=false

    Under backgrounders, look for enforcing the Canada Elections Act. List of offenses includes:

    “-acting as an officer of a registered political party while knowing that the party does not include participating in public affairs among its essential objectives
    -as a party leader, certifying a declaration or report while knowing that the document contains false or misleading information”

    In another bg, they tell you that supporting material required for registration for the first bit, is the party constitution. The way that EC knows who the leader is of a party, is that officers and the party must provide a resolution passed by the party certifying that that so and so is that leader and was duly elected according to proscribed procedures, etc.

    In other words, if the party officers certify he was elected in the usual manner and he wasn’t…..it’s a problem. You’ll have to look for more yourself.

    My source is a lawyer, I’m not just saying it.

    Sorry, gotta go.

  22. Boy, that seems like quite an interpretative stretch.

    Besides, the LPC’s constitution has this handy-dandy escape hatch:

    The National Executive may make additional transitional rules consistent with the substance and spirit of this Constitution to deal with any matter that is not adequately addressed in this Schedule.

    An argument could certainly be made that the present situation constitutes “a matter not adequately addressed…” under the circumstances.

  23. I’m a conservative spoofer? No, I’m a card carrying Liberal. Sit on a riding executive as a member of the APC.

    And yes, they skip a monthly payment as I max out at 11 months.

  24. And yes, they skip a monthly payment as I max out at 11 months.

    Good way of going about it.

  25. Tania — One never knows. I frequently get people here claiming to be Liberals who use that as a pretext to advance some agenda, but it’s quite clear that they’re not. My apologies.

  26. I am a Con troll…not the idiot kind. This is simple…bypass your own rules….get Iggy to take the helm….Bob Rae will be hurt and bleed a bit but he’ll live, he’s got really thick skin…..put to death the stupid idea of a Coaliton, I’m assuming the idea of Dion falling on his own sword is to pass the blame on to someone who’s in France teaching….give Harper his two years to fail brilliantly….no politician is coming out of this economic mess unscathed…then….presto chango Iggy and the Libs are back in power!! Iggy, is, what the Libs have been famous for over the years…a left politician on the campaign trail, and, a middle of the road PM. In 6 months from now most Candians wont remember or care about what Dion did to the party. Your all welcome!!

  27. This is simple

    Famous last words. Well, that’s why we have the Conservative Party; for people desperate to believe that complex problems can have simple solutions.

  28. I’m sure over the next week that I’ll be proved correct….because its the only way for the LPC to become a mainstream party again, and a viable alternative to the Cons….and that is what you want isnt it?

  29. Yep. Doesn’t seem like too much to ask for, does it?

    Sure will have been a long time though… Sheesh. I can’t wait for all of this nonsense to be over.

  30. and that is what you want isnt it?

    I want to this country to become serious again, to develop some kind of memory and to stop operating, particularly in times of crisis, that the future is easily predictable.

    I’m sure no one (not even the Cons, although they’ll never admit it) thought we’d be in this situation now when the election ended less than two months ago. I’m sure very few people before the summer thought we’d even be in an election in the Fall. And that’s just six months.

    All I know is I want this fucking Harper Party removed from power as soon as possible. And if you can’t help with that, you’re part of the problem.

  31. Maybe part of the problem Ti-Guy is that what YOU want and what the actual voters want are two different things….and that kind of sums up the Liberal party for the past 3 years. The man and that party you hate just won 143 seats….the party you support won 77….if your idea of change is to ‘blame’ Canadians for not seeing things your way then be prepared for another hated Harper victory. And my point to all this blathering is…in 6 months voters wont care how Iggy became the Lib leader….and voters dont care who prorogued Parliament…and voters dont care who called an early election or who concocted a Coalition power grab…they will do what they always do…look at the NDP and the Bloc with suspicion, and, look to the two mainstream partys for Leadership and stability. Iggy will provide the Leadership, now will the members provide the stability? Jeez…I’m on fire!!!

  32. Maybe part of the problem Ti-Guy is that what YOU want and what the actual voters want are two different things

    I’m not an actual voter?

    And what do I want, exactly? C’mon…back up that assertion with some evidence.

    Notice how Conservatives personalise everything. Yes, it’s Ti-Guy’s selfish, solipsistic world view that is being frustrated by the Conservatives that’s the problem. The ideological rigidity, the lying, the demagoguery, the financial mismanagement, the propaganda and the abuse of Parliamentary process has nothing whatsoever to do with it. I’m just an out-of-touch, arrogant elitist Liberal who can’t bear to imagine anyone else being in charge of things.

    I don’t think anything will ever get better until Stephen Harper is out of the Conservative Party altogether. He’s a psychopath.

  33. Mr RedTory sir,

    I, in no way, was referring to you in regard to acronyms. Your faithful commenters used a total of seven although 3 were obvious. It’s the casual acceptance that the entire blogosphere will be as aware of the letters as the writer, is what gets my wick up.

    Reading writing should be seamless and having to stop and ponder the puzzling letters rather than ponder the ideas is anti to what you’re hoping to attain and dumb as hell.

    Also. Billg should eat bugs. He doesn’t get it and never will.

    old bill

  34. Yes your a voter Ti-Guy…but your in the minority, which, is where all your anger comes from…:)
    And…to add salt to the wound…if a snap election were to be called before Christmas Mr Harper and the Conservatives would probably win 180 to 200 seats…I’m just going by the polls. Most voters dont care about Parliament abuse, mismanagement or propaganda….because they’ve been watching and listening to it for 40 years…Stephen Harper didnt invent all these things you hate….but…like every PM before him…he’s mastered it….well…actually…he’s really bad at masking it, but, he certainly didnt invent it.
    So…go get Iggy…he looks like he can handle Harper one on on…but please…leave the moral high road to the Bloc MP’s…they’re the only honest members in all of this mess.

  35. I don’t remember billg using quite that many ellipses before. Is this some sock-puppet?

    Anyway, yes I do believe Iggy can handle Harper’s attacks but since Harper will stop at nothing, I don’t know how much more of that I want to see tested.

    Maybe you Conservatives can start holding that snarling psychopath’s leash a bit tighter? For your sakes, you’d better start thinking about that.

  36. Jeez, the leash HAS been tight and the Liberals are down to 77 seats and are now in a Leadership crisis. Can you imagine what would be left of the party if he wins another 11 seats? Thats politics Ti-Guy, it rewards the best, it always has and always will, if your not good enough, or bright enough, or cagey enough to beat your opponent then you figure out what you did wrong and change it, and it should be clear to everyone now that, the Libs are still in stage one of political defeat….they are still blaming the guy that beat them instead of being better.

  37. Thats politics Ti-Guy, it rewards the best, it always has and always will

    Like George W. Bush?

    Please stop claiming that attracting around 22% of the eligible electorate is some definitive statement about of anything. Besides, after so many elections and after finally coming to power in the best possible, this is the best we can get from Stephen Harper?

    Anyway, save the tough talk for your buddies down at the end of the bar.

  38. Like George W. Bush?

    There are guys who can win elections… but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they should have power.

  39. billge: “… the Libs are still in stage one of political defeat….they are still blaming the guy that beat them instead of being better.”

    SG: Harper got thrashed pretty good by the Liberals, et al … Had to all the way back to Alberta to find a safe place to park his hubris!

    Using your merit-To(R)y-‘US’, winners model, what does gettin’ bested by Dion make Harper, Eh!?

    Snerd

  40. And Harper can’t even win elections decisively.

    He really is quite the loser, if the focus were where it properly should be and if all the conditions and resources he’s been blessed with were taken into proper account.

  41. I thought the maximum a person could donate is $91.66/month.

    The other $8.34 goes into paper bags for, you know….

    Or perhaps she just donates $100 a month for 11 months, and takes a break at Christmas.

  42. Iggy, is, what the Libs have been famous for over the years…a left politician on the campaign trail, and, a middle of the road PM.

    Iggy is anything but a left politician. Have you been smoking something illicit?

  43. Actually TiG, I think Harper’s recent missteps is evidence that he is loosin’ it.

    I mean we got control + control + control … then hubris and triumphalism that fall flat on its face, followed by a constitutional crisis laced with vitriol and demonization ….

    After all these years of control, he blows his carefully crafted image with an unnecessary tactic … If there is an ‘Adieu’ in order, surely it is to Harper’s possibility of a majority.

    Snerd

Leave a comment