Since the idea of a coalition to defeat the Harper government began to seriously take shape last week, by far the loudest and most frequently heard complaint from the usual suspects has been the participation of the Bloc Québécois.
Adding what some might regard as legitimate weight to that objection, it’s reported in the Vancouver Sun this morning that Ted McWhinney, former Liberal MP (John Turner’s successor in Vancouver-Quadra), political scientist, esteemed constitutional lawyer, and sometimes advisor to past Governors General and other notables, apparently thinks that a coalition dependent on the support of the BQ would be “crazy” (to use the good professor’s highly technical legal phraseology).
According to McWhinney (for what it’s worth, an Aussie who believes that once QEII passes on, Canada should simply allow the monarchy to quietly fade away) seems to object to Duceppe effectively being “kingmaker” in the proposed coalition arrangement. “What is the Bloc leader going to demand for his support?” he asks, rather aimlessly. Well, what he always does, I would imagine; specifically, more and better deals for the citizens of Quebec in addition to overarching demands regarding the environment and other issues on which “progressives” (and surveys would have us believe, most Canadians) are in general agreement with.
Actually, there’s not a lot of substance to McWhinney’s speculative objections. Also, you might notice that they already seem to have been outpaced by events. “Unless she is satisfied that there’s a definite prospect of a continuing government, she doesn’t have to go along,” he notes. Indeed. But the accord signed yesterday would seem to resolve uncertainty about that. If anything, the prospect of a continuing government under the opposition’s coalition arrangement is quite literally more “definite” than was the case under the endless brinksmanship of Stephen Harper’s recklessly partisan minority.
At the risk of committing the sin of “shooting the messenger” it might be legitimate to point out that the journalist in this instance has been a rather implacable and strident foe of the Bloc. In past articles Yaffee has called the BQ “an unhealthy blight in the federal Parliament” and has railed indignantly against public subsidies that fund its existence. In this respect, she’s not alone. Many people share that sentiment, even though a good number of others who operate in the reality-based universe have long since moved on from it.
Red Tory v.3.0.3 
Like it or not, the Bloc’s MPs are duly elected representatives for millions of people across Quebec. Shutting them out because of one plank in their platform makes no sense to me. There is much more to the Bloc’s agenda than separation.
As a Tory supporter, obviously I’m not to happy about these developments. Goes without saying, eh, lol.
However, as a federalist there is something else to consider. As much as I dislike the Bloc and their aims, as far as being part of the government in this coalition, I think in one ironic way it bodes well for the future of Quebec politics. How can sovereigntists claim that the federal government doesn’t work for them now when they now have a unprecedented opportunity at being part of the solution? Never again will they have the excuse that Canada can’t work for them.
So I may not like the idea of this coalition, but at least there is some lemonade at the end of the day after all the lemons get smashed.
Barkman — Well said and a very mature attitude to what is a rather unpleasant situation.
As much as I take a certain amount of obvious glee in seeing Harper squirm, if I had my druthers, I’d rather he’d just gotten on with the serious business of government rather than, if you’ll excuse my English, fucking around with things for his own selfish aims.
I’d be more concerned about BQ influence, and I think such criticisms from opponents to the coalition would have more force, were it anyone but Stephane Dion leading this coalition. This is a man, as we all well know, who has spent much of his adult life fiercely fighting against the separatists and Quebec nationalists, and has paid a personal price for it. He’s the last person that would play games with unity or make concessions to the nationalists, and he’s absolutely the best person to defend Canada’s interests in this coalition, as he has all his career.
Jeff — Quite so. And Dion was entirely clear about that yesterday in their press conference. Obviously there are ideological differences when it comes to the future direction of Quebec, but for the time being it’s really neither here nor there. Pauline Marois thinks a coalition government will be great because Quebec will “get things”… Well, duh! What else is new under the sun? I’m sure that Alberta will “get things” too. Perhaps even more than it might have under the Conservatives. 😉
Well Red, going after the electoral financing so early and so aggressively certainly didn’t help him. I’m all for getting rid of it, and can appreciate that we can’t justify paying ALL political parties these kinds of subsidies in such economic times. However, this would have been better done incrementally.
The thing about about holding a knife against a person’s throat is that you don’t get to see the knee that slams into your in the nuts, and this is precisely what happened between Harper and the Liberals.I would think that in better financial times for the LPC, they would have supported this eventually anyway. There was absolutley no reason to pursue this now.
I don’t understand all this frantic speculation about the “price” demanded by Duceppe for Bloc support. If Mr. McWhinney had bothered to watch yesterday’s press conference, he would have heard Duceppe outline specifically what he expected of the coalition (EI reform, accelerated infrastructure spending, help for industry, hard GHG reduction targets). As long as the coalition government respects those conditions, the Bloc will support it on matters of confidence for 18 months.
No further steps to recognize Quebec’s distinctiveness. No decentralization. Nothing objectionable on the constitutional front at all. In fact, the Conservatives are the only party proposing immediate, radical and controversial constitutional reform (the Senate). It seems the Bloc and NDP were so eager to see the back of Harper and ensure medium- to long-term stability that they agreed to terms that no future leader of the Liberal Party could reasonably refuse.
I did not watch the press conference, but apparently Duceppe said he would not sign on for more than 18 months because he could not get any concessions on Quebec’s “nation” status.
I think the fact he seems to be a pragmatic politician may have something to do with that too…
Barkman,
I’m impressed with your comment. You are actually agreeing with Jack Layton, who said the exact same thing in that illicitly recorded conference call.
I think it might also be prudent to remember that not all of the Quebecers that voted Bloc or the Bloc represents are separatistes. I know more than a few Anglos who vote Bloc simply because they do a good job in looking out for their ridings and for Quebec’s interest.
Compare that to the stellar job Jim Flaherty has done for Ontario’s interests.
I don’t think the coalition will, in the end, do any better or worse than the Tories would have on the economic front. What I am impressed with is cooperation and any group that can work via cooperation and compromise has me rooting for them.
tourjoursdan: Like it or not, the Bloc’s MPs are duly elected representatives for millions of people across Quebec. Shutting them out because of one plank in their platform makes no sense to me.
Totally agree. It seems to me that excluding them would only exaserbate Quebec alienation.
barkman: How can sovereigntists claim that the federal government doesn’t work for them now when they now have a unprecedented opportunity at being part of the solution?
Agree again. Co-opting nationalist sentiment, I think, would work far better than trying to suppress it.
Mike: I know more than a few Anglos who vote Bloc simply because they do a good job in looking out for their ridings and for Quebec’s interest.
It always amuses me how after every English debate, there’s more than a few Rest-of-Canadians who say, “gee, that Duceppe seems like a really effective leader; I would vote for him if I could.”
Compare that to the stellar job Jim Flaherty has done for Ontario’s interests.
*shakes fist* Flaherty!!! What a total ideological jackass. Why does he hate his province so much, and how could he be re-elcted? *shakes head and sighs*
MissaA — Yeah, that was brought up during the election. There’s a lot of us in the ROC that quite like Duceppe and would vote for him if given the chance. He’s kind of the “sentimental favourite” amongst a lot of folks, if you know what I mean. We don’t all have this raging, mad anger at the BQ.
read the accords.
the support from the bloc is clearly based on economic matters, not issues related to independence.
plus it binds the bloc to the agreement.
plus, the economic accord is clearly supported by the bloc.
we need to counter this anti-quebec, anti-bloc nonsense.
I might add to that, the observation that it’s pretty rich hypocrisy to blast the BQ for wanting to break up the country coming from pompous, self-appointed spokespeople of “the West” (good grief, how arrogant) who regularly threaten to separate from Canada if they don’t get their way and/or who feel perennially aggrieved and/or victimized (sodomized/raped/etc.) by our present federal arrangement.
Well Red, I don’t think it does us any good to casually dismiss Western angst as if it weren’t there. Their attitude is only going to get worse now. Before you know, I believe that they will finally be able to empathize with the true depth of how fed up sovereigntists were with the current arrangement for all those years. If a sovereigntist movement can succeed in Quebec to the point that it get what it wants, even participation in government of a country that it wants to leave, then there is no reason that separatist sentiment in the West can’t realize a likewise ambition and pursue the same aim in earnest.
I have little sympathy for it. I grew up in the very west of the west… (you can’t actually get much more “west” than I am without falling off a cliff into the Pacific Ocean) and I spent much of my younger years living in Alberta listening to the disgruntled prattling of the WCC and others (during the NEP years and subsequent recession years, I might add) and none of it washed with me. Sorry… These people will be pissed off, resentful and stubbornly angry no matter what.
The “genius” (if we can call it that) of the BQ/PQ is that they’ve managed to channel their self-interest in a way that’s actually (and rather perversely) constructive, rather than destructive. I suspect there might be other factions in the rest of Canada inclined to pursue the same course to gain concessions from the Feds if they had some kind of legitimate (i.e. “cultural”) basis for their grievance. It’s kind of a neat scam.
That said, I don’t resent them for it. We all do pretty much the same thing in our various regions and provinces, just by different channels and means… What distinguishes the BQ/PQ is that they’re more overt and shameless about it.
Well Red, I don’t think it does us any good to casually dismiss Western angst as if it weren’t there. Their attitude is only going to get worse now
Well, get cracking. Form a political party dedicated to separatism, start holding policy conventions, build political capital, run candidates, proprose referendums and figure out a way of dealing with The Clarity Act.
Those treasonous Quebecers have laid out the entire plan for you already. Time to shit or get off the pot.
If a sovereigntist movement can succeed in Quebec to the point that it get what it wants, even participation in government of a country that it wants to leave, then there is no reason that separatist sentiment in the West can’t realize a likewise ambition and pursue the same aim in earnest.
That is such a false equivalence. Quebecois are an actual national group that for most of their history, as a group, have been second-class citizens. And no matter what, no matter what a good deal they get in Canada, if you identify as a certain nationality, there is no substitute for having a sovereign, independent state.
I try to empathize with alienated Westerners, but it’s hard. Intellectually, I understand the metropolis-hinterland division. I realize that there has only ever been one Prime Minister (before Harper) from the West.
What really grates on me is their bitterness towards Ontario. And pettiness. The idea that Ontarians are just as regionally focused as they are. The idea that you can hold your economic success over other provinces. It’s like… there’s no great conspiracy against the West. 3.5 million people live in Alberta; 12.8 million people live in Ontario. Alberta’s GDP was $259.9 billion in 2007; Ontario’s is $597.2 billion. There’s just more stuff going on in Ontario. Ontario has never, until now, complained about the equalization system, and McGuinty’s efforts haven’t been very successful at getting Ontarians to jump on board. That’s because Ontarians don’t identify as Ontarians, they identify as Canadians. At the risk of sounding patronizing, Alberta just seems very nouveau-rich. And the values difference blows my mind as well. Where’s the tolerance and willingness to accommodate that’s supposed to typify Canadians? Why does Alberta want to Texas?
I realize that there has only ever been one Prime Minister (before Harper) from the West.
Its worse than you think…Harper was born and raised in Toronto – he didn’t go west until university.
Harper is from Toronto. Dear Gawd, he’s even a Leafs fan.
Okay – there’s something I don’t understand. Duceppe signed an agreement to support an NDP/Liberal agenda for 18 months. Whatever input he/Bloc have is already in there I would presume.
Those treasonous Quebecers have laid out the entire plan for you already. Time to shit or get off the pot.
Not “you”, Ti-Guy; I’m not a Westerner. And not being one, I don’t know if I could ever truly understand the ones that feel as they do. Nor Quebecers.
As Red has said, Quebecers have turned regional politics into an art form, and you’ve outlined in pretty good detail how the West could do so also. In a weird way, I am sort of caught between admiring how the Liberals/NDP marginalized the Bloc to the point that they have no more legitimate raison d’etre and on the other hand worrying that along with growing grumbling in the West wether we are witnessing the balkanization of our country. I just hope that this isn’t the final catalyst for that.
I can say this some amount of immunity (*ducks* just in case) but I’d ignore a lot of this shite you see online coming out of Alberta (which purports to be speaking for “the West” — much to my chagrin) and would equate it to the same angry, supposedly “disenfranchised” voices that arise from the flatlands east of the Cascade mountains. Understand that much of the media absorbed by our friends in the prairie provinces comes from our neighbours south of the border. Now ask yourself what your opinion might be if was largely being shaped by TV stations in Spokane, WA or Great Falls, Montana? I think you might be hatin’ on those big city folks… whether they be in Toronto or New York City. Think about it.
Mike,
You’re completely correct.
I’ve voted for Duceppe since I’ve lived in that riding (5 elections now? Good god, I’m old) and I’m not a separatist.
They are good MPs, many of them have years and years of experience. Plus in my riding the other parties send jokes to run against Gilles.
Its worse than you think…Harper was born and raised in Toronto – he didn’t go west until university.
*hopefully* Does that mean that Harper doesn’t reflect popular sentiment in Alberta?
But yeah, I knew that. The thing is that he’s wholeheartedly adopted the ethos of right-wing Western alienation, he wanted to build firewalls against his own place of birth. I doubt he would today identify as a Torontonian, and if he did I doubt that Torontonians would accept him.
Speaking of Western Prime Ministers, just for interests sake, how is the civil-rightsy anti-American Diefenbaker regarded among Western conservatives?
Diefen… who?
I think most of these “western” commenters can relate more to Ronald Reagan (as imagined by the media they so love to despise) than they can to John Diefenbaker. And if they actually knew anything about Dief (da Chief!) they’d realize how ironic that was.
Westerners=code for continentalist Americanization.
The Reformers & Klein-ites have usually exploited a sense of alienation stemming from some legitimate issues (eastern-centrism, a lack of participation in government decisions) as an excuse for a far-right agenda. If you look at Saskatchewan (a far less free-market worshipping province historically) western alienation has popped up as well (Blakeney&Lougheed vs Trudeau for example). This suggests that there is something real there in addition to angry-redneck-asshole syndrome that is easily exploited by free market hawks masquerading as “patriots” looking out for the best interests of Albertans (read Steady Eddy Stelmach).
Ironically these western “patriots” aren’t separatists, but continentalists, hoping for a merge with the benevolent empire to the south. It’s all a sham. There is no pride or allegiance to their own place because they’d all rather be American colonials.
There are some legitimate grievances vis-à-vis “western alienation” to be sure and a perfectly understandable resentment against the intensely annoying and pervasive “Toronto-centric” view of the universe, but come on… At some point you need to step back from that to a more reasonable position.
Calgary is, if I’m not mistaken, the second or third largest location of head offices in Canada, is it not? This notion that “western Canada” is the throbbing heart of the “REAL” part of the country is pretty lame. Yeah, like they’re all a bunch of hicks from Lacombe. Hey, did I mention that the best trifle in the universe can be found in a cool little seafood restaurant in downtown Calgary (go figure) and that some wonderful bed & breakfast establishments are to be found in the place, or that Bankers’ Hall is home to some of the trendiest retailers on the planet…? Give me a break.
I don’t know who these asinine rubes and poseurs are who post all over the place (“Hunter”… ahem), presuming to speak for “the west” let alone for the Alberta that I knew when I lived there.
I just felt the need to share this:
That’s edifying sort of rubbish you get from Stephen Taylor’s “TWITTER” link.
Yikes!!!
“As patriotic citizens we will use every legal means to stop this (the coalition)” – PM Harper about 20 hours ago from TwitterBerry
Nice that he mentions legal… ’cause there are a number of illegal things that people could do — mob violence is never pretty.
“Most undemocratic power grab in Canadian history” – PM Stephen Harper about coalition at CPC Christmas Party about 20 hours ago from TwitterBerry
If it’s undemocratic for parties with the majority of seats to form a coalition, what’s democratic about a party with a minority of seats pushing legislation forward without co-operation of the other parties?
Oh, pish-posh… you and your insufferably pesky “details” — getta gun, dont’cha know! The hordes are massing at the Bastille as we speak and threatening to… implement a stable centrist government that will provide economic stimulus to sectors struggling in these tough times. Whooah! Have you ever heard such radical nonsense?
My biggest gripe with Canwest cannery Vancouver Sun was that Babs was on page 1 with her half-baked opinion piece, equipped with a “leading parliamentary scholar” who uses phrases like “reckless Keystone Kops” to back up his unbiased analysis of the situation. All this sits just below an ad (I mean article) that proclaims “Will Coalition Shut Out BC”.
Meanwhile, the actual fact-based article on the Parliamentary realities was couched on Page 3 of Section B, as if they’re reporting on some political turmoil in Tanzania.
But, wait, the financial section lays the entire market fall yesterday on the turmoil in Ottawa without once commenting on how the US markets were equally affected (which is strange, seeing as only a trickling of news agencies in the US even bothered to report on the news even today, 24 hours later).
Yeah, I’d say Canwest is aboard the Con train. I think they may even have a conductor’s cap in their back pocket.
That “TSE plummets on news of coalition” meme was beyond contemptible. Yeah, I guess it had nothing to do with news that the US economy had been in the tank for a year or the the fact that other negative reports had been released yesterday… And it was completely coincidental with markets in Asia and Europe taking a dive too. Yes! All due to the prospect of the Harper government being toppled. Good grief… what alternate universe do these idiots inhabit?
what alternate universe do these idiots inhabit? Toryland….
Wingnutia.
Indeed. Where the sky is… um “blue” all the time, one supposes. When it’s not clouded by cotton candy or populated with angels, fairies and other supernatural sprites…
Actually, I don’t the imaginary land they live in is that pleasant. From the way they talk, it seems more like a nightmarish hellscape.
Ti-Guy , either put down the crack pipe , or stop drinking . You pick , let me enable you . Knowing you , let me help …….think . That is all .
Red: “… the prospect of a continuing government under the opposition’s coalition arrangement is quite literally more “definite” than was the case under the endless brinksmanship of Stephen Harper’s recklessly partisan minority.”
SG: BAM! A clear, crisp, expression of a clear, crisp, thought!
Snerd
CWTF: “what alternate universe do these idiots inhabit? Toryland….”
SG: Yes … “Tory’s (R) US” …!
Red: “… That “TSE plummets on news of coalition” meme was beyond contemptible.”
SG: Exactly! … ‘Cause we all know it’s Obama’s Economy …!
Snerd
Ti-Guy , either put down the crack pipe , or stop drinking . You pick , let me enable you . Knowing you , let me help …….think . That is all .
What?
If I need to listen to a talking turd, Bill, I’ll watch South Park
Oh good grief, first the “beware the socialists!” thing, and now, “we’re more patriotic than you!” — like, dude, if that didn’t work south of the border, what makes you think that it’s going to work here?
I thought we’d written that nonsense off when they’d thrown in the towel on Afghanistan… remember when they were all keen on “fighting them over there, etc.” until they stopped giving a shit and it became a political loser for them (so much for their vaunted “values” and all the patriotic, red shirt, “support the troops” crap they shoveled out by the bucket load when it suited their purposes). What a bunch of useless douchebags.
Ti: “… Well, get cracking. Form a political party dedicated to separatism, start holding policy conventions, build political capital, run candidates, proprose referendums and figure out a way of dealing with The Clarity Act.
Those treasonous Quebecers have laid out the entire plan for you already. Time to shit or get off the pot.”
SG: Great call on that hand!
And hey … They could get Sa(R)ah to address their ‘CON’vention … she’s already got experience speaking at separatist gatherings.
Snerd
MissaA: “… like, dude, if that didn’t work south of the border, what makes you think that it’s going to work here?”
SG: Well …. err … ‘Reality is fir wimps!’
Snerd
Mike: “… I think it might also be prudent to remember that not all of the Quebecers that voted Bloc or the Bloc represents are separatistes.”
SG: Also and philosophically, it is a well know fact that separation from separation equals federation …
Snerd
Please. You don’t think a little ol’ repeal of the Clarity Act isn’t on Gilles’ mind?
Wake up and stop being so goddamned obtuse and naive.
snerd don’t come around often, but when he does….
KEvron
MissaA: “… like, dude, if that didn’t work south of the border, what makes you think that it’s going to work here?”
Well, at least the Cons are being environmentally responsible by recycling all those used Republican talking-points. Better that than have them end up in some landfill somewhere.
In a day or two, expect the Harpies to accuse Dion, Layton & Duceppe of being secret Muslims and of palling around with terrorists.
… Secret separatists pallin’ around with Marxist …
beluga2 and Snerd Gronk, LOL 🙂