War on Gaza: Not as Advertised

British writer Patrick Seal (The Struggle for Syria, etc.) and Abdel Bari Atwan, the editor of Al-Quds Al-Arabi discuss the relative indifference (if not outright complicity) of neighboring Arab states in the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza.

In the second part of the program, the panel is joined by Israeli national security expert Efraim Inbar, whose charming views about the “unruly Palestinians” can be viewed here.

Seal appears to have nailed the real agenda of the Israelis, that has absolutely nothing to do with the pretext of preventing rocket attacks by Hamas.

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32 Comments

Filed under Israel-Palestine

32 responses to “War on Gaza: Not as Advertised

  1. CWTF

    .Seal appears to have nailed the real agenda of the Israelis, that has absolutely nothing to do with the pretext of preventing rocket attacks by Hamas
    Many have been saying that since the start – Just don’t tell Warren K and the coterie…

  2. That may well be.

    Moving on from an initial position of just being exasperated by the idiocy of it all, I’ve been actively challenging many of my own assumptions about this issue over the past several weeks. The other night, I sat through a two-hour lecture by Norman Finkelstein, for example.

  3. CWTF

    I’ve liked Finkelstein, of course stated that could get me labelled and “anti-Semite”.

    The Holocaust Industry has some interesting arguments and insights.

  4. There’s always the risk of that ridiculous charge being leveled against those critical of Israel.

  5. dizzy

    I read faster than I listen, so I didn’t listen to the whole thing, but …

    Israel’s aims can be listed as follows, in reverse order of importance:
    • stopping the rockets Hamas has been firing at the Negev;
    • destroying the tunnels into Gaza from Egypt in order to prevent Hamas from rearming;
    • restoring Israel’s ‘deterrence’ by means of an overwhelming display of force — with the ‘lesson’ directed as much at Hizbullah, Syria and Iran, as at Hamas itself;
    • crushing the Palestinians’ aspirations for independent statehood by inflicting a decisive defeat on them; and,
    • pre-empting, by a hoped-for sweeping victory, any attempt by the incoming Obama administration to re-launch Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

    http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=1863
    Why the Massacre in Gaza Continues
    by Patrick Seale Released: 12 Jan 2009

  6. CWTF

    I’ve been actively challenging many of my own assumptions about this issue over the past several weeks.
    That’s always a good exercise to do. Any changes in some of your assumptions?

  7. Well, the conventional media narrative was always highly suspect, but I didn’t have enough information to reject it outright with any degree of certainty — the self-defense justifications made by Dershowitz and others are, after all, quite compelling on their face. So, while I had a strong sense that this war was in part motivated by domestic Israeli politics, the objectives beyond that were entirely unclear to me. Whatever they may be in actuality, the assertion advanced by Seal appears to have the ring of truth about it.
    I think I’ve got a bit more complex view of Hamas than had previously been the case which was to view them more just as a radical/militant Islamist group rather than a primarily nationalistic movement. I also wasn’t as fully aware of what a horrific shithole Gaza was… even before the Israelis started bombing it to rubble.

  8. Dizzy — Thanks for the link to the article. In it however he doesn’t mention the Israelis’ goal of radicalizing the Palestinians as he does in the video. That idea kind of turns conventional thinking on its head. Or at least it did for me…

  9. RT, speaking of Dershowitz, you might be interested in this rebuttal of Dershowitz’s Wall Street Journal editorial: Israel’s Policy Is Perfectly ‘Proportionate’. The comments attached are quite interesting as well.

    btw, thanks for the video clips.

  10. Jay

    Its shocking how fast altruism, and charity get shot out the window by supposedly religious people as soon as they get a bit of money in their pious little hands.

    Maybe the difference between a theist and an atheist is that atheists innately have morals, the others need daily reminders and a guidebook and still go astray.

  11. Bryan

    No Jay, I’m afraid you have that last part entirely wrong, atheists don’t have innate morals and any attempts to justify such a claim have ended in futility.

    It is in fact quite the opposite…
    When a theist “goes astray”, he is acting in violation of the moral standard of his worldview, and when an atheist “goes astray,” he is acting within his worldview, one that is devoid of a moral standard.

  12. Ti-Guy

    *sigh*

    Every time Bryan comments, I tear page out of the Bible and burn it.

  13. Bryan

    Every time ti-guy comments…it seems he doesn’t address the issue, but just makes a personal jab.

  14. Ti-Guy

    *rrrrrip*….There goes Deuteronomy 7, 10-22.

  15. CWTF

    I think I’ve got a bit more complex view of Hamas than had previously been the case which was to view them more just as a radical/militant Islamist group rather than a primarily nationalistic movement.
    I’ve often posted that there is a political branch of Hamas that provides social services – the works they do seems to explain the acceptance of the more militant branch.
    The political branch did win the elections there and it seemed like a mistake to reject democracy because some did not like the results.

  16. Tomm

    RT,

    Interesting video’s. Thanks for posting them.

    Certainly providing some depth to what is otherwise a war of sound clips by Kent Brockman journalists, and stretchers in bombed out streets.

    I had not realized before how utterly alone the people of Gaza were. The video seems to be trying to tell me that the people of Gaza have been moved like cattle by all factions, and have slowly been vanilla’izing Hamas.

    If Hamas has no arab support than Israel appears to be acting as a proxy for stronger arab states that are happy to see the butt of Hamas.

    Or this appears to be the situation your video is painting.

    If so, then why is Hamas such a pariah? Is it for the same reasons that Israel hates Hamas? If so, isn’t their destruction a good thing?

    In addition, I am uncomfortable with journalists (instead of vested parties) singing the praises of the vested party. The journalist is taking the role of cop, judge, and executioner.

    When a journalist says that the rockets are just a”pretext” for the Israeli invasion, why doesn’t he also follow that up with what Hamas could have done to stop the invasion, forestall it entirely, or better yet, as the Gazan government, done something to relieve the suffering of their citizens?

    Thanks for posting this. It adds more questions, but they are relevant and important.

  17. Paul Merck

    These Israeli people now ressemble their nazis’ prosecutors killing innocent people in Gaza. Why don’t they look themselves in the mirror and see in their heard the Hitler they carry in? Bunch of hypocrites, someone has to stop the bastards.

  18. Tomm

    Paul Merck,

    What on earth?

    Half the people killed (500?) are Hamas fighters.

    Hamas, has been fighting from places where RETALIATORY attacks WILL cause the killing of innocents.

    They have put tunnels and weapons caches where attacks will cause civilian deaths on purpose.

    Hamas has been lobbing bombs into Israel for years with nobody stopping them.

    Hamas’s charter SPECIFICALLY calls for the death and destruction of Israel.

    Hamas is suppose to be the government of Gaza working for the well being of their people.

    And you have no criticism of these vicious nihilistic killers. Instead you say:

    These Israeli people now ressemble their nazis’ prosecutors killing innocent people in Gaza. Why don’t they look themselves in the mirror and see in their heard the Hitler they carry in? Bunch of hypocrites, someone has to stop the bastards.”

    Is there hope for you?

  19. Ti-Guy

    Bunch of hypocrites, someone has to stop the bastards.

    Brave talk from a clapped-out fool ranting from the safety of his rural redoubt.

    Why don’t you join the IDF and stop the bastards, you brave warrior you?

    I’ve had it with civilian knobs cheering on brutal action only because they have no stake in it whatsoever.

  20. Tomm

    Ti-Guy,

    We agree!

    …January 17th, 2009, at 1023h.

  21. Whoops, Paul broke Godwin’s Law!

    You lose….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

    Also refer to….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

    Which apart from the current issue on the thread is a great discussion of logic and various fallacies.

  22. Tomm

    Aurelio,

    Good point, and curiously during such a non sequitor type discussion.

    Speaking of Adolf Hitler, Leader of the National Socialist Party of Germany during the 1930s and 1940s…

    I noticed that the New Jersey white supremist that named his boy “Adolf Hitler” and his daughter “Aryan Nation” had his kids taken away from him.

    Hopefully the kids will get their names changed to something that is less of a millstone around their necks.

  23. Ti-Guy

    Whoops, Paul broke Godwin’s Law!

    You lose….

    Actually, this is a misunderstanding of Godwin’s law. It’s a statement of probability, not a rule that establishes the validity of any particular argument.

  24. Yeah, everybody says that its not because of the name thing, but I don’t know. I figure if they are stupid enough to name your kids that, they are likely stupid enough to make other big mistakes like having an unsafe house or skipping school or whatever.

    Unfortunately we’ll never know….privacy issues. Fascinating though

  25. Click on the links—there is a discussion of that very point. The idea is that whoever can hold out long enough without using that reference, is the better debater.

    Arghh—last comment, sb “name their kids that”, not “name your kids that….”

    need coffee….

  26. Tomm

    Aurelia,

    Gotta love those people who name their kids to make a political statement.

    I think we’ll be seeing a lot of “Baraks”, “Obamas”, and maybe even see a “Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper, or Trig” over the next few years.

  27. I actually know someone who just named their baby Trip.

    I think as some sort of tribute!

  28. Tomm

    It never fails to happen.

    I’m sure there were a spike of “Winstons”, “Montgomerys” after the second world war, and a falling off the table of little “Adolfs”.

    Canadian politician’s don’t seem to hold the same place. I don’t recall a swack of “Lesters” or “Pierres” as a child.

  29. Jay

    So Bryan, you are saying I have no morals?

    Strange every pentecostal I have met have usually been some of the the worst human beings imaginable. Alcoholics, drunk drivers, child abusers, adulterers, and thieves.

    Going to church just alleviates them of their guilt so they can repeat the same mistake. They never learn. I live with my demons and the keep me on the straight and narrow. I don’t put my personal responsibilities in the hands of an imaginary old men in the sky and forget about the entire ordeal altogether.

  30. Ian

    Thanks for the clips. Abdel totally pwned Inbar in the 2nd half. He’s righ too, that the international response to this has been utterly useless.

  31. Tomm — If so, then why is Hamas such a pariah? Is it for the same reasons that Israel hates Hamas? If so, isn’t their destruction a good thing?

    Apparently, because they represent a potential threat to the repressive dictatorships, monarchies and oligarchies in the region.

    I can’t say whether their destruction is a “good” thing — when looking at the history of the Middle East, there always seem to be a lot of unintended consequences involved.

  32. Tomm

    The arab Palestinian’s have been left to twist in the wind by arab states for so long that it has become expected. It doesn’t even seem to be an embarrassment anymore. All that oil wealth and so little to help their arab brothers in Palestine.

    …except with guns, poverty, and the dissemination of hate.

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