Twas the Night Before Cloture

Minnesota Public Radio’s Jeff Horwich reads the Christmas classic with health-care reform and Sen. Joe Lieberman in mind.

Update: Speaking of Droopy Dog… Acting Senate president Franken pulls the pull on the Independent Gasbag from Connecticut.

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181 Comments

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181 responses to “Twas the Night Before Cloture

  1. Drake

    Franken represents the new-style Democrats like Obama – thug-like in there ways and means to ram through their agenda. True leftists thugs.

    I hope that video gets widely circulated. You have to put the flashlight on the cockroach for everyone to see how ugly it looks.

  2. Wow Drake. Did you sleep through the Bush Administration thuggery? Project much?

  3. Guzzeuntite

    Not sure what thuggery someone whose name I can’t easily spell is referring to with Bush, Drake, but, in any case, I am in general agreement with Mr. Project Much’s logic: Two wrongs make a right.

  4. Drake

    toujoursdan – there’s something about leftists that make them want to censure free speech. It’s practically a fetish with them. It comes from a belief that they possess “the truth”. It’s politics practiced as a religion.

    You saw it in the Soviet Union, you saw it with the Nationalist-Socialists in Germany. They didn’t like to be contradicted so they silenced their opponents.

    You see it on most left/lib blogs which censure comments way more than on right of center ones.

    For those on the right, free speech and property rights are the cornerstone of democracy. So censuring speech is anathema. To the left, free speech and property rights are not only not the cornerstone, they are seen as actual impediments to imposing its radical leftist agenda be it wealth distribution, slowing economic activity to “save the planet”, imposing politically correct thinking [place your leftist project here].

    So Franken’s MO is in keeping with his leftist mindset.

    I’ll say this: Red’s blog does appear to have a much better track record for allowing free speech than most left/lib blogs. I’d wager it comes from his British background: the British have arguably the most robust democratic traditions on the planet. The unwritten British Constitution is based on protecting free speech and property rights.

    As long as you have those two things, democracy will flourish.

  5. Drake, before you rant get the facts straight. The Leader of the House made the rules to stick to the rules because Republicans were taking up ALL the time with their rants and not giving others a chance to have their say. They even wanted to read the over 700 page health plan.

    The rule is 10 minutes, but GOP’rs have taken hours and hours.

    Who’s playing games here Drake?

  6. CWTF

    For those on the right, free speech and property rights are the cornerstone of democracy. So censuring speech is anathema.
    Did you actually write that with a straight face?

    Here is an exercise, go post on right-wing blogs and then to the same on what you consider left-wing blogs… Come back and see who has more moderation…

  7. CWTF

    Even funnier Drake because “Immigration Minister Jason Kenney has accused Christian aid group KAIROS of being anti-Semitic and disclosed that’s why the group suddenly lost its federal funding.”

    How’s that Freech Speech thing going?

  8. Drake

    CWTF – oh I’ve done that already, Liblogs is the worst for comment moderation. They usually don’t allow anonymous comments and they delete comments they don’t like.

    As I said, Red’s blog is a happy exception to that rule.

  9. Drake

    “…that’s why the group suddenly lost its federal funding.”

    CWTF, while living off government hand-outs may be a cornerstone of leftist thinking, it’s not a rightist one. When I said that democracy protects property rights, I didn’t mean to imply that the principle extended to government hand-outs. I appreciate I have to be specific about such things with the readers of this particular blog.

    With that mise-au-point what do I think of the government cutting off another leftist group from the government teat?

    Hip hip Hooray! Hip hip Hooray! Hip hip Hooray!

  10. TofKW

    You saw it in the Soviet Union, you saw it with the Nationalist-Socialists in Germany

    Newsflash from the 30’s Drake, the Nazis were fascists, not socialists. Or did you forget the first group that Hitler and his henchmen went after were the German Communists? You see the right-wing, when it goes to its extreme, is also very effective at stifling free speech.

    And before you get into this revisionist history that the southern teabaggers are going on about that the Nazis were somehow socialists because of their full name, private enterprise and wealthy industrialists were very much supported and encouraged in Nazi Germany, but under the condition that they served the state. Because (for those who are unaware) capitalism works best under authoritarian governments, which explains how Hitler’s Germany arose so quickly from the ashes of the Great Depression, or for that matter how China is still experiencing 7% growth this year regardless of the current economic crisis.

  11. Drake

    TofKW – Hitler and the Nazis were leftists, they disdained free speech and property rights. They nationalized most of the German economy. Like all good leftists, they consolidated power in the state. Were commies even further to the left? Yes they were. But Nazis were on the same side of the political spectrum. The Nationalist-Socialist Party they were called, does that ring a bell?

  12. Drake

    By the way, on the topic of free speech censure CWTF, earlier this week I opined that marriage is properly between a man and a woman, and why marriage properly understood, is of fundamental importance to society. I of course just scratched the surface of that topic.

    Lo and behold, someone piped up to Red that comments should be censured. I think it was the separatist named Eric, who supports the leftist Bloc Quebecois. Giving your opinion on why marriage should be between a man and a woman should, in the mind of that leftist, be banned. It’s really quite sad. But it doesn’t surprise me at all, it’s par for the course. Red, to his credit, said he hadn’t seen anything said warranting censure.

  13. TofKW

    Yawn!
    OK Drake, here’s your poli-sci 101 lesson of the day. Read this definition of fascism:
    Fascism – Wikipedia

    First paragraph:
    Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system, and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.

    Do you really want to continue this very elementary debate on where fascism rests within the political spectrum? As I wrote before, the extreme right-wing is just as enthusiastic in curtailing free speech as the extreme left-wing.

  14. Drake

    Wikipedia. You might want to dig a little deeper and read Hitler in his own words. Hitler decribing himself as a socialist, the socialist dreamer.

  15. TofKW

    Links please?
    Are you trying to deny the Nazis were fascists?

  16. Ti-Guy

    Drake, you’re a liar. Go peddle your garbage somewhere else.

  17. Ti-Guy

    Oh, and learn the difference between “censure” and “censor.”

    If you don’t know it, you’re too illiterate to participate in these discussion.

  18. Drake — I’m sure there was a little snark in Franken’s objection, but it was a legitimate point of order. And contrary to what McCain said, I’ve seen them enforced many times before. Also, you have to put this in the context of Sen. Tom Coburn’s infantile, time-wasting stunt the other day.

  19. TofKW

    Actually I’m finding is quite amusing that someone could be so divorced from reality that they do not realize that any political ideology, when taken to its extreme, is generally a bad thing.

  20. Ti-Guy

    Actually I’m finding is quite amusing that someone could be so divorced from reality that they do not realize that any political ideology, when taken to its extreme, is generally a bad thing.

    People like Drake aren’t “divorced from reality.” They’re just bullshit artists. Liars, in other words.

    The mistake the rest of us always make is to assume that these people seriously believe what they’re spewing. Very few do, and you can tell who those ones are by the way they communicate (they’re usually objectively of low intelligence…think ‘religious fundamentalists’). Most of the wingnuts aren’t that dumb; at worst, just unread/uninformed and unethical. But there’s no doubt in my mind that they know exactly just how informed they are; they just don’t care. Prevailing for them isn’t about advancing a compelling, persuasive, properly-reasoned argument. It’s about dominating, pure and simple.

  21. “you have to put this in the context of Sen. Tom Coburn’s infantile, time-wasting stunt the other day”

    a lot of people missed the connection….

    KEvron

  22. dreck and guzzeunshite are so cute when they pretend to understand procedure!

    KEvron

  23. TofKW

    Not that there is any doubt that fascism is the right-wing taken to its extreme, but I wish to continue to bury Drake’s ignorance that only the ‘right’ protects free speech and property rights. Since wikipedia is so objectionable to Drake, (it actually is as accurate as Britannica or any other encyclopedia, regardless of user-created content) here is another entry, this from encyclopedia.com:

    Although Mussolini’s and Hitler’s governments tended to interfere considerably in economic life and to regulate its process, there can be no doubt that despite all restrictions imposed on them, the capitalist and landowning classes were protected by the fascist system, and many favored it as an obstacle to socialization.

    Still want to argue that the Nazis were socialists?

  24. Navvy

    TofKW, the simple fact of the matter is that the Drakes of the world don’t quite understand what was so objectionable about the Nazis. They seem to think that the bad thing about National Socialism was the Autobahn and that Hitler was a vegetarian. Extreme militarism, nationalism, the police state, state sanctioned racial discrimination… these sorts of things just don’t enter into the equation for them. You and they think the Nazis were bad for entirely different reasons.

  25. Ti-Guy

    Still want to argue that the Nazis were socialists?

    The more you do their work for them, the more you give them, the more they argue.

    This “Nazis were socialists” thing has been going on for years…maybe even decades. I don’t know what went on before the Internet and previously, I had only ever been exposed to discussions of Nazism among people who knew what they were talking about.

    We really do need some better education on the nature of fascism, because I fear those who don’t recognise it are falling prey to it.

  26. TofKW

    We really do need some better education on the nature of fascism, because I fear those who don’t recognise it are falling prey to it.

    Indeed, as I am fairly convinced that one more major terrorist attack on the US during the Bush administration, and martial law would have reared its ugly head. It was already exhibiting most of the preliminary symptoms of becoming a proto-fascist state despite a second attack.

  27. Ti-Guy

    It’s pretty much what happened with the Germans. By the time enough of them realised what was going on, it was too late.

    The apparent powerlessness I’m seeing among our various leadership these days is pretty frightening. Although fascinating as well, since it’s rooted much more in hyper-rationalism (corporatism, extreme legalism, technique instead of genuine brilliance, technocratic complexity, etc.), rather than irrationality this time. But that’s the genius of fascism; it surfaces in ways most people won’t recognise.

    If I had to identify a cabal or at best a “distributed conspiracy” most responsible at this point, I’d single out the boards of directors of most our major mainstream media agencies, including the CBC.

  28. Drake

    OT – the latest from Copenhagen is that the Indians and Chinese have walked out of the talks.

    Here’s hoping the talks fail.

    I understand Obama’s promising a trillion dollars he doesn’t have to give to other countries to try and control the climate. He’ll borrow money from the Chinese to pay the Chinses, amongst others, to control the uncontrollable – the earth’s climate.

    No wonder the Chinese walked out, their collective brains must have started to hurt listening to the nonsense coming from that brainless windbag.

  29. Drake

    Exhibit “A” of a delusional mind at work:

    Ti-Guy’s comment 10:15 am.

  30. Ti-Guy

    Exhibit “A” of a delusional mind at work:

    Ti-Guy’s comment 10:15 am.

    If you had actually understood it, I would have begun to worry.

  31. TofKW

    I actually have very personal reasons for taking on the bullshit from the populist faux-conservative rightwingnuts that the Nazis were somehow socialists, simply because they argue only the ‘left’ limits free speech and will appropriate private property in the name of state interests. My uncle was arrested and sent to a soviet gulag for taking a cow across the pre-1941 Russian/German border to sell it within the Nazi-controlled section of Poland. Why? Because the Nazis still had a capitalist economy and he sold the cow for a lot more money than what the state was offering within the communist-controlled side where our family lived. By the way my uncle did survive, but there is a long story involved which (while both frightful and fascinating) does little to add to the conversation at hand.

    I’d just like to end this by showing the Drakes of this world that our family has first hand experiences with both left- and right-wing extremism. And we conclude there is very little difference between the two, with the possible exception of livestock prices.

  32. Ti-Guy

    Most of these pointless discussions would end if the “Drakes” of the World were obliged to back up the claims they make. But they don’t. When challenged, they just sail over it and move on to the next baseless assertion.

    I gave up asking them to do this long ago. It just doesn’t matter to them whether they’re credible or not.

  33. Drake

    TofKW – you’re wrong about the Nazis, they were leftists. It’s a common misconception. We can agree that they Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were terrible undemocraticvregimes which caused immense personal suffering and contributed to the decline that Europe and Russia finds itself in, still today.

  34. Drake

    TofKw and Ti-Guy, you could do worse than pick up a copy of Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” which explains in detail how the Nazis were in fact leftist socialists.

  35. Ti-Guy

    TofKW – you’re wrong about the Nazis, they were leftists. It’s a common misconception.

    You can assert that a million times; it won’t make it any less stupid.

  36. Ti-Guy

    TofKw and Ti-Guy, you could do worse than pick up a copy of Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism”

    Oh c’mon. We weren’t born yesterday. No one sentient can read Liberal Fascism.

  37. TofKW

    Drake, did you live under the Nazis?
    Fuck off!

  38. CWTF

    No one sentient can read Liberal Fascism.
    That has to be one of the worst books ever written.

    Even bringing it up in a discussion is enough to say that Drake is a moron.

    We really do need some better education on the nature of fascism
    Even when you patiently explain it to them, they get a glazed look…. remember these people like little shiny objects and incinerate rage…

  39. Drake

    You two are such big babies.

    O.K., I’ll spend 5 minutes on this, although I’m no doubt wasting by breath:

    1. “Nazi” was gutter slang for the verb “to nationalize”. The official title of the Nazi Party was “The National Socialist Workers Party of Germany”.

    2. Hitler advocated the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law enforcement.

    3. Party membership was especially popular with educators, bureaucrats, and the press.

    4. Being a Nazi was politically correct. They called themselves “The Children of the New Age of World Order”.

    5. Anyone who questioned Nazi high-handedness in the German press was branded a “Conservative Reactionary”.

    6. The Gestapo began to confiscate and seize the homes, businesses, bank accounts, and personal belongings of wealthy conservative citizens who had prospered in the old Republic.

    7. Pagan animism became the state religion of the Third Reich and Christians were widely condemned as “right wing fanatics”.

    If Ti-Guy had been a citizen of Germany in the thirties and fourties, I’ve little doubt he would have fit in like a dirty (brown) shirt.

  40. Guzzeuntite

    Drake,

    Give it up. The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists.

  41. Ti-Guy

    Go fuck yourself, Drake.

  42. TofKW

    Nice cut & paste from the Free Republic website you dweeb.
    To bad it’s all factually challenged and been proven to be incorrect.

    Please explain to me why it was that my uncle sold his cow for a much higher price within the Polish-Nazi private market, versus selling (ie giving away) to the communists?

  43. Guzzeuntite

    If these self-proclaimed progressives read the Nazi party political platform (without, you know, seeing the word “Nazi” at the top of it), they’d cream in their smelly old jeans like Chris Matthews listening to a speech by the One.

  44. Ti-Guy

    That has to be one of the worst books ever written.

    Or arguably, the cleverest book ever written, since it defies reading by the very people who are capable of critiquing it objectively and thoroughly. That would require an exposition at least five times longer than the work itself.

    Just like any of Drake’s comments, for that matter.

  45. Guzzeuntite

    “To bad it’s all factually challenged and been proven to be incorrect.”

    One, Ti-Guy would ban you for this illiteracy. (Not that I would. You’re OK my me, boss.)

    Two, your cow story makes no sense. Please explain it again in English.

    You are wrong in what you say about Drake’s being factually challenged.

    Here’s the Nazi Platform for you Google idiots. I will grant that some of you may be a little troubled about all the anti-Jew stuff, but giving the growing affinity on the Left for anti-Zionism, maybe one of two of you might be nodding your heads in agreement (as least in regard to the “neo-conservatives — wink, wink). But most of this stuff is a Progressive’s wet dream:

    http://people.westminstercollege.edu/faculty/mmarkowski/H113/AH/platform.html

  46. Drake
    December 18, 2009 at 10:28 am

    OT – the latest from Copenhagen is that the Indians and Chinese have walked out of the talks.

    Here’s hoping the talks fail.

    Here’s hoping they do too. It will just hasten the fall on the great capitalist ponzi scheme “conservatives” and corporatists keep shrilling.

  47. Ti-Guy

    Nice cut & paste from the Free Republic website you dweeb.

    Oh, well that’s just par of the course now, isn’t it? This liar drones on about “property rights” and then, without hesitation, steals someone’s intellectual property.

    A quick google suggests the owner is one Thomas Colton Ruthford, and that it first appeared in a letter to the editor of The Washington Times. Although I bet he’s not the original owner either.

  48. Drake

    Guzzeuntite,

    You make a valid point about “the growing affinity on the Left for anti-Zionism”.

    Much of today’s anti-semitism has found a happy refuge on the left of the political spectrum.

  49. Drake

    Good link Guzzeuntite, but Ti-Guy probably already had it in his “favourite” links.

  50. Guzzeuntite

    “‘conservatives’ and corporatists”

    Two completely different concepts.

  51. Ti-Guy

    But most of this stuff is a Progressive’s wet dream:

    Shouldn’t you be carrying on your crusade at Daily Kos or Firedoglake or Democratic Underground?…you know, closer to home? After all, when the progressives come to round you up (from my lips to God’s ears, but I digress), no one here will be able to help you. Especially if no one really likes you.

  52. Ti-Guy

    Good link Guzzeuntite, but Ti-Guy probably already had it in his “favourite” links.

    And where did you steal that from, you thief?

  53. Guzzeuntite

    “Shouldn’t you be carrying on your crusade at Daily Kos or Firedoglake or Democratic Underground?…you know, closer to home? After all, when the progressives come to round you up (from my lips to God’s ears, but I digress), no one here will be able to help you. Especially if no one really likes you.” – Ti-guy

    I shall summarize: Ti-Guy likes the Nazi platform.

    Thought so. How could he not?

  54. Guzzeuntite
    December 18, 2009 at 11:59 am

    “‘conservatives’ and corporatists”

    Two completely different concepts.

    Agreed. Corporatists are laughing all the way to the bank from their ability to dupe “conservatives” into voting against their economic and political interests.

  55. Guzzeuntite

    You know, I love and admire my first comment on this thread so much, I shall reprint it here again for your (and My) enjoyment:

    The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists.

  56. Ti-Guy

    I shall summarize: Ti-Guy likes the Nazi platform.

    Coming from the only *thing* I’ve encountered online who’s ever hurled an ethnically-based epithet at me, I find that highly amusing.

  57. Guzzeuntite

    Winner, stupidest comment of the day:

    Somone whose name I can’t easily spell.

    The comment: “Corporatists are laughing all the way to the bank from their ability to dupe “conservatives” into voting against their economic and political interests.”

    Why? The blatant demonstration of total ignorance of how corporatism works and what conservatives economic values are and how they vote them.

  58. Ti-Guy

    Agreed. Corporatists are laughing all the way to the bank from their ability to dupe “conservatives” into voting against their economic and political interests.

    I’m sure even they’re surprised at how easy it has been. But then, they’ve been working at for an awfully long time.

  59. Guzzeuntite

    The “corporatists” know exactly to which political party to send the bulk of their bribes in order to get their favored legislation. The party of Barry, Harry & Nancy, Inc.

  60. 1. “Nazi” was gutter slang for the verb “to nationalize”. The official title of the Nazi Party was “The National Socialist Workers Party of Germany”.

    They also told the Jews that “work makes them free”. Gosh. Do you take everything they say at face value? These were propaganda masters. FAIL.

    2. Hitler advocated the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law enforcement.

    This is leftist?

    Is there a western country that hasn’t done this? The U.S. has public schools, state universities, the VA and public hospitals, interstate highways, the largest military-industrial complex in the world (which Republicans/conservatives give a blank cheque to), the Department of Homeland Security/U.S. prison system (which Republicans/conservatives don’t think is big enough.)

    Again, this is leftist? Ha. FAIL.

    3. Party membership was especially popular with educators, bureaucrats, and the press.

    And the current Pope who was in the Hitler Youth. If you didn’t join the party your career prospects and future were pretty limited. FAIL.

    4. Being a Nazi was politically correct. They called themselves “The Children of the New Age of World Order”.

    Right. A new world order were Germanic white people ruled everything. As opposed to the left/communists, who were racially tolerant. There were Chinese communists, Russian communists, Angolan communists, Cuban communists all cooperating at various times. FAIL.

    5. Anyone who questioned Nazi high-handedness in the German press was branded a “Conservative Reactionary”.

    Wrong, and stupid. So I take it you believe everything the press says now?

    6. The Gestapo began to confiscate and seize the homes, businesses, bank accounts, and personal belongings of wealthy conservative citizens who had prospered in the old Republic.

    The seized the assets of political opponents, not “conservatives”. Communists and labour activists were also major targets. Most of the seizure was targeted at Jews who were hardly conservatives.

    7. Pagan animism became the state religion of the Third Reich and Christians were widely condemned as “right wing fanatics”.

    Wait! I thought leftists were atheists and secularists, not pagan animists. Communists certainly hated all forms of religion, including paganism. FAIL.

    If Ti-Guy had been a citizen of Germany in the thirties and fourties, I’ve little doubt he would have fit in like a dirty (brown) shirt.

    Project much?

  61. CWTF

    Much of today’s anti-semitism has found a happy refuge on the left of the political spectrum.
    I’ve yet to see a Neo-Nazi at any NDP or Liberal meeting… strange that…

  62. TofKW

    Two, your cow story makes no sense. Please explain it again in English.

    Remember this was the divided Poland circa 1939-41 when Hitler & Stalin made their secret pact to carve up the country between them as it was prior to 1918. Poland was under full Nazi control from 1941-45, then a satellite state of the USSR from 1945-90.

    In the divided Poland, my uncle took his cow to the Nazi-controlled part in the west. The reason was because the Nazis still had a private market. He sold the cow for more money than he could ever have gotten within the communist controlled east-side where my family lived.

    You and Drake somehow seem to be offended thinking we are saying conservative=fascist. This is about as dumb as saying liberal=communist. Fascism is the extreme right-end, where free-speech and property are state controlled for the sake of the claimed greater good. In effect it is not very much different than what happens under the extreme-left. In the end it is true that there are only subtle differences between the two, however fascism still retains protection of private ownership and capitalists …provided they work towards the benefit of the state of course.

    Also, if you bother to read any of my past posts, you will know by now I am not a liberal by any means. Not all the opposition to Stephen Harper comes from the ‘left’.

  63. Ti-Guy

    The “corporatists” know exactly to which political party to send the bulk of their bribes in order to get their favored legislation. The party of Barry, Harry & Nancy, Inc.

    Yes we know the entire population of the US consists of gullible rubes…I don’t why you need to tell *us* that.

  64. CWTF

    I’m amused by those that equate Nazi Germany with any kind of socialism…

    I’ve found this to be simple enough for some to understand:

    To base the answer on the name of the NSDAP is naive and misleading.

    Claims that they took major corporations into public ownership are inaccurate. (Nobody has yet managed to produce a list of major corporations taken into public ownership by the Nazis).

    They were anti-egalitarian and very keen on rigid hierarchy.

    They made no attempt to use the tax system to redistribute income or wealth.

    When the Nazis used the term socialist of themselves they meant something like German race community (with the emphasis on community). It had nothing to do with conventional socialist ideas about equality, redistribution or welfare.

    In Nazi Germany nobody was persecuted, sent to a concentration camp or killed simply for being a capitalist. Owners of corporations had nothing to fear.

    On the other hand, Communists, Social Democrats, liberals and labour leaders were ruthlessly persecuted.

    The Nazis’ political allies in Germany and in occupied countries were mainly hardline conservatives.

    One needs to be aware that it has become trendy in the last 10-15 years to claim that the Nazis were socialists. There’s a great song and dance about the name of the party but no evidence from what the Nazis actually did when in power.

  65. When the Nazis used the term socialist of themselves they meant something like German race community (with the emphasis on community). It had nothing to do with conventional socialist ideas about equality, redistribution or welfare.

    Exactly. It was and always has been ethnic/racial socialism, not economic socialism.

  66. CWTF

    Or from “Crooks and Liars”:
    First, the National Socialists, aka Nazis, were “Socialists” in roughly the same way that the “Union of Soviet Socialist Republics” was run by Republicans. It was a marketing term that reflected more the fascists’ real roots in the radical ferment around socialism, but there is little question (beyond Goldberg’s fanboy cult) that fascism generically and Nazism specifically were right-wing phenomena.

    The citations available on this subject are numerous, but probably the clearest explanation comes from Robert O. Paxton in The Anatomy of Fascism, who explains that fascism for all its rhetoric was in practice closely aligned with and allied with capitalists and conservatives — some of whom, years down the road, came to regret the association, but the vast majority of whom approved enthusiastically up through the war years. (Think Krupp.) They were also decidedly — violently, murderously — anti-socialist.

  67. Seems to be the right-wing talking point of the day. I heard some pundit on Fox this morning saying that Franken’s objection was an example of the “totalitarian impulse” of leftists or some such thing.

  68. Guzzeuntite

    Someone whose name I can’t spell easily:

    “Hitler advocated the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law enforcement.

    This is leftist?” he asks.

    Holy. Fucking. Shit.

    Are you THAT dumb?

    To answer your question: Yes. Of course.

    Look at RT’s recent posts about the ongoing US health care debate. You think conservatives want to nationalize education too? Transportaion? Manufacturing? The police? Its national resources? Conservative hate these ideas. YOU like them. That’s the point I am making. Progressive and national socialists agree on many, many, many (all?) economic issues.

    “Is there a western country that hasn’t done this?” you incredibly ask.

    We are all fascists now, someone. Some more than others. You people just want to get us to the pure form right now.

    No, Someone, YOU “FAIL.” EPIC FAIL.

    But:

    The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists.

  69. Guzzeuntite

    CWTF,

    You, twerpitude, have failed to read the Nazi platform that I generously provided you.

    (Oh, and stop stealing other people’s writings or I shall have to throttle you.)

    No one has ever, ever proven with, you know, actual FACTS and stuff that fascism or Nazism are right-wing ideologies. You only go by Stalin’s say-so.

    You are a bunch of dupes, you dupe.

  70. Guzzeuntite

    “Seems to be the right-wing talking point of the day. ‘ — RT

    The barbarians are at the gates.

  71. TofKW

    The poli-sci revivalists also seem to forget that there was a plot in 1933 staged by corporatists to overthrow FDR and the ‘New Deal’ and institute a fascist autocracy in the USA.
    Business Plot Against FDR
    Now why on earth would corporatists wish to install a fascist government in the USA if fascism=socialism? They were inspired by the great strides Hitler made in Germany in turning around the economy without resorting to socialist wealth redistribution means. In fact many of them were profiting by making business deals with the Nazis. Sadly, even some Jewish businessmen were dealing with the Hitler regime.

  72. Look at RT’s recent posts about the ongoing US health care debate. You think conservatives want to nationalize education too? Transportaion? Manufacturing? The police? Its national resources? Conservative hate these ideas. YOU like them. That’s the point I am making. Progressive and national socialists agree on many, many, many (all?) economic issues.

    Bullshit. Conservatives LOVE these ideas. Reagan presided over the biggest expansion of government in U.S. history. The military ballooned. So did government spending.

    (I love how you ignored the rest too. So not many or all (?))

    Secondly, you forget the context. Germany was massing for a major war. This wasn’t a normal economy. It was a war economy. Reagan and Bush I, II used the same excuse vis-a-vis Russia and AlQaeda.

    The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists.

    And the Right fails to understand the “socialist”, like many other words, has more than one meaning. (Well actually they do understand this because they call themselves “conservative” but don’t actually conserve anything. They spend more than liberals. Look at the American spending since 1980. They throw out the due process sections of the American constitution and torture at will. etc.)

  73. Seems to be the right-wing talking point of the day. I heard some pundit on Fox this morning saying that Franken’s objection was an example of the “totalitarian impulse” of leftists or some such thing.

    But when that right-wing rube from South Carolina shouted Obama “you lie” when everyone knew that rube was lying, he was a true patriot. *rolls eyes*

  74. Navvy

    Guzzeuntite, don’t look now, but your complete ignorance of political history up to Reagan is showing.

  75. Guzzeuntite

    “Exactly. It was and always has been ethnic/racial socialism, not economic socialism.”

    Read the whole goddamn platform, you goddamn illiterate someone. Their economic policies are all over it?

    I cannot believe the blindness of the Left. Sorry, RT to use up precious bandwidth, but someone and twerpitude leave me little choice. Here’s are the economic provisions of the Nazi platform:

    — We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

    — The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
    — Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
    — In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
    — We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
    — We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
    — We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
    — We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
    — We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
    — We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
    — We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
    — The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

    You are welcome, someone and twerpitude.

  76. Guzzeuntite

    “Guzzeuntite, don’t look now, but your complete ignorance of political history up to Reagan is showing.”

    Do tell, Navvy. Spell it out.

  77. Guzzeuntite

    “Now why on earth would corporatists wish to install a fascist government in the USA if fascism=socialism?”

    One, what plot? Sounds like a hoax. Read the whole Wiki entry.

    Two, no one is saying fascism = socialism. Fascism (and its sister Nazism) are subsets of socialism, as Marxism is.

    Socialists have had all sorts of differences among themselves, from Marxists, to Stalinists, to Moaist, to fascists, to National Socialists, to Progressives.

    Yeesh. Learn something, will you?

  78. I did read it you “moran”. It’s not a socialist platform. It’s not even leftist. Neo-nazis and leftists hated each other. Most Jews in Germany (and since then) were leftists.

    You can’t reconcile German racial theory with liberalism. Everything in there is race based economics and social policy. This is based on tribalism, not economic socialism, which is by definition non racial.

    There is nothing in there about equality for an entire population. There is nothing in there about the redistribution of wealth to the lower class. They “nationalized” education in order to promote racialist theory. They are against land taxes. They are against materialism. They are against secularism.

    FUCK what an idiot.

  79. TofKW

    “Bullshit. Conservatives LOVE these ideas. Reagan presided over the biggest expansion of government in U.S. history. The military ballooned. So did government spending.’

    Also, after lowering them in his first term, looking at the ballooning US deficit Reagan quietly raised taxes a couple of times during his second term. For that matter, so did Bush Sr. – in a complete reversal of his famous ‘read my lips, no new taxes’ sound bite.

    You see, true fiscal conservatives know that taxes do not automatically equal theft. The idea that you give major tax breaks to the corporatists to get out of a deficit is pure neo-liberal economics.

    What masquerades as the conservative movement these days is nothing more than empty populism with neo-liberal economic policy, and social-conservative dogma to appeal to the hyper-religious ‘family values’ types. They have no principles anymore …like the liberals. I will give the liberals some credit though, at least they understand the GST drop that Harper made was a really dumb move.

  80. Ti-Guy

    Conservative hate these ideas.

    Seems they liked them enough when the banks needed the bailouts under Bush though, eh? And what of all the other big government encroachments during eight years of that administration, which the Right even elected once?

    “Conservatives” don’t know what the hell they want, except to be LEFT ALONE!!!

    ….*shriiiiiiiek*

    But only when they themselves don’t need any help. When that changes, they whine for handouts and milk the public purse for all it’s worth.

  81. Use up as much bandwidth as you want.

    Just to sidetrack somewhat back to the topic here for a moment, behold the jaw-dropping hypocrisy of St. McCain:

    On October 10, 2002 — just ahead of the looming mid-term elections — the Senate rushed a debate on a war authorization giving President Bush the power to use force against Iraq. The resolution ultimately passed the Senate after midnight on an early Friday morning by a vote of 77-23.

    During the course of the frenzied floor debate, then-Sen. Mark Dayton (D-MN) spoke in favor of an amendment offered by Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV) that would have restricted Bush’s constitutional powers to wage war against Iraq. After a minute and a half, Dayton ran out of time, prompting this exchange:

    The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator’s time has expired.

    Mr. DAYTON. I ask for unanimous consent that I have 30 seconds more to finish my remarks.

    Mr. McCAIN. I object.

    Byrd stepped in to grant Dayton time to finish his remarks. But just moments later, Byrd asked for more time to speak for himself. Again, McCain objected, prompting Byrd to chide him for doing so. “This shows the patience of a Senator,” Byrd said. “This clearly demonstrates that the train is coming down on us like a Mack truck, and we are not even going to consider a few extra minutes for this Senator.”

  82. oh, fer fuckssakes. would one of you cry godwin already, and have done with this troll’s exercise?!

    KEvron

  83. CWTF

    The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists.
    What the fuck are you going on about?

    Shorther Guzzeuntite: “Hey my name is Guzzeuntite and you are all wrong unless you admit that 2+2=5″

  84. Guzzeuntite

    Someone whose name I can’t spell easily said,

    “There is nothing in there about equality for an entire population.”

    Platform no. 9. “All citizens must have equal rights and obligations. ”

    And he said, “There is nothing in there about the redistribution of wealth to the lower class.”

    No. 12 says, “Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.”

    No. 15: “We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.”

    no. 16: “We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.”

    No. 17: “We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility”

    No. 20: “We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.”

    So, you lied when you said you read this — even after I posted it in full for your benefit in case you couldn’t click on the link. These are all about the redistribution of wealth. Where do you think “the State” gets it money from to do all these things? Thin air?

    Then you said, “They “nationalized” education in order to promote racialist theory.”

    I have to print no. 20 yet again, I guess. No. 20 (see my earlier comment for full quote) deals with the nationalization of education. The last sentence reads:

    “We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.”

    It says nothing about its being motivated by desire to promote national racism. Of course, free education is open only to citizens, which excludes Jews, but this is explicitly an economic provision.

    Nazism is a form of socialism. The platform makes this abundantly clear.

  85. Guzzeuntite

    “What the fuck are you going on about?” says twerpitude.

    Sorry you are too dull to figure that out, boy.

  86. Guzzeuntite

    By the way, twerpitude, your “shortened” version of my “The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists” is actually longer.

    You idiot.

  87. TofKW

    “No. 12 says, “Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.”

    You claim this is wealth-redistribution?
    War profit is what you make after taking over the economy of sovereign nation. This has been the convention in war for thousands of years now. What do you think the US is doing with Iraq’s oil fields?

  88. “There is nothing in there about equality for an entire population.”

    Platform no. 9. “All citizens must have equal rights and obligations. ”

    And what is the entire population? White Germans. Not Jews, slavs, gypsies, etc. They had their citizenship taken away.

    And he said, “There is nothing in there about the redistribution of wealth to the lower class.”

    No. 12 says, “Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.”

    No. 15: “We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.”

    no. 16: “We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.”

    No. 17: “We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility”

    Where does it talk about redistribution to the poor as opposed to appropriate to use toward war?

    “We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.”

    Learn how to read. They only wanted the smart kids. In fact, sub-intellegent children were on their death lists.

    It says nothing about its being motivated by desire to promote national racism. Of course, free education is open only to citizens, which excludes Jews,

    Learn how to read:

    Platform 4: Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood…

    It even uses the term race. No Jews, slavs, Czechs, Gypsies… yup. That’s racism.

    but this is explicitly an economic provision.

    Idiot.

  89. Guzzeuntite

    RT,

    No conservative thinks Sen. McCain is a “saint.”

    Most think him a jerk.

    FWIW.

  90. “Nazism is a form of socialism.”

    who. fucking. cares.

    KEvron

  91. Guzzeuntite
    December 18, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    By the way, twerpitude, your “shortened” version of my “The Left will never admit that the National Socialists were national socialists” is actually longer.

    You idiot.

    Says the mother of all idiots.

  92. “No conservative thinks Sen. McCain is a ‘saint.'”

    you mean “no true conservative”, don’t you, angus?

    KEvron

  93. KEvron
    December 18, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    “Nazism is a form of socialism.”

    who. fucking. cares.

    KEvron

    You’re right. It’s pure projection, from the people who advocate torture, ending habias corpus and carpet bombing civilian populations.

    I’m through with this moron.

  94. Guzzeuntite

    Someone:

    “Where does it talk about redistribution to the poor as opposed to appropriate to use toward war?”

    You have got to be kidding me. You actually think these economic policies are intended to fund war?

    Where do you get this stuff? Are you clinically insane? Are you delusional? Are you reatarded? Stupid? A clown? A dope? A pin head? A maron? A nincompoop? A knucklehead? A silly willy?

    Really, where?

    Someone … let me tell you this. In life, you can’t just go making shit up. You need a basis for your statements. What on earth makes you believe this platform means anything other than what it plainly says?

    Regarding you manic obsession with equality under the Nazi platform, I already showed you that provision TWICE. That it excludes non-Germans (most especially Jews) is besides the point. The is why they called it NATIONAL socialism, dimwit. The nation. The GERMAN nation. I’m not trying to say all socialist hate the Jews. I am simply saying the Nazis were socialists. National (racist, anti-semitic) socialists, but socialist nonetheless.

    You need a free education, but I weary of giving it to you.

  95. Guzzeuntite

    “Nazism is a form of socialism.”

    “who. fucking. cares.” says KEvron.

    NOt THe NAzis.

  96. Guzzeuntite

    “It’s pure projection, from the people who advocate torture, ending habias corpus and carpet bombing civilian populations,” says someone.

    I don’t think so, Freud. Besides conservatives don’t “advocate torture, ending habias corpus and carpet bombing civilian populations” either. But you don’t believe that because you like to make shit up.

    BTW it’s “habeas.”

    Habeas education, fool, if you can find it.

  97. the nazi’s bear no resemblance to today’s modern socialist nations. even then, chavistas bear only superficial resemblance to norges or danes. the only things todays nazi has in common with the traditional is racial hatred and an affinity for jackboots.

    the discussion is a non-discussion. it’s a feckless attempt to muddy the waters, but only one side’s buying the argument, so what’s the point?

    KEvron

  98. “NOt THe NAzis.”

    yep. that’s what i figured.

    rt, why you indulge these trolls is beyond me.

    KEvron

  99. Regarding you manic obsession with equality under the Nazi platform, I already showed you that provision TWICE. That it excludes non-Germans (most especially Jews) is besides the point.

    Oh my God. Maybe you were dropped on your head as a child or didn’t get enough oxygen after birth. It would explain a lot.

    But equality isn’t equal unless everyone is included. Duh! If you exclude non-Germans then by definition it isn’t equal. Duh! It isn’t beside the point. It is the point. Look up the word equality.

    The Germans were not socialists. Socialism by definition includes redistribution to everyone no matter what “race” they belong to.

    It you are taking peoples’ property and lives away to distribute to only certain people, based on nationalism or race, it’s facism.

    FUCK what an idiot.

  100. Ti-Guy

    Besides conservatives don’t “advocate torture, ending habias (sic) corpus and carpet bombing civilian populations” either.

    Of course they do.

  101. …btw,

    of course, they care. derp.

    KEvron

  102. BTW it’s “habeas.”

    You’re correcting me on spelling???????? Hahahahaha.

  103. Guzzeuntite

    TofKW,

    “What do you think the US is doing with Iraq’s oil fields?”

    Guarding them.

    “War profit is what you make after taking over the economy of sovereign nation.”

    Oh, God. Another silly willy.

    War profit is what Acme Widget Co. Inc. makes when it sells widgets at exorbitant prices during wartime. War profit is not “booty” you silly dooty.

  104. Guzzeuntite

    “You’re correcting me on spelling????????”

    Yup. And you’re welcome.

  105. Ti-Guy

    rt, why you indulge these trolls is beyond me.

    Well, I can understand why he does, but the ones who call his long time readers “nazis” is a little hard to take.

    And make no mistake: Guzz thinks all of us here are nazis.

  106. Guzzeuntite

    “Of course they do.” — Ti-Guy

    No, they don’t.

  107. Ti-Guy

    No, they don’t.

    Yes they do. They also like porn, extra-marital affairs, illicit, degrading sex and lot of drugs…mostly booze, contraband stimulants and pharmaceuticals.

    If you want to the real meaning of conservative to prevail once again in the US of A, you’ll have to do better than trolling Canadian blogs and accusing Canadians of being nazis.

  108. I’ve been in this argument a hundred times.. and have seen the same arguments to and fro.

    My two cents this Friday afternoon.

    There is nothing inherently “fascist” or “nazi” in either socialism or capitalism. However, that being said, it would be fair to say that more totalitarian fascists have developed under the veneer of socialism or communism than capitalism.

    Which makes sense, in a stupid way, because the concept of pure socialism and communism requires the state to effectively take control of the broad means of production. So – if you want to effectively create a fascist dictatorship, easier to start by marshalling the masses under the banner of “socialism” or “communism”, therefor allowing you to effectively wrest control of your country and its assets in the name of “giving them back to the people”.

    Then what happens – is, like all fascists, you need to create a national hostility against a “bogeyman”, which, in most socialist or communist dictatorships, becomes democratic capitalist regimes, which it eventually did in Germany, though they paid particular (and twisted) attention to the capitalists of the Jewish persuasion.

    Hugo Chavez is the best current example. While he professes himself as leading a socialist or communist “revolution”, in reality, he’s just another fascist seeking to impose his will on his people, with little real regard for the notion of democracy or input from the masses he’s supposedly championing (see his refusal to recognize unions and to allow for dismissal of union organizers from employment).

    Meanwhile, while his people are running out of gas and electricity, he demonizes the west and accuses capitalists of destroying the world.. and, sadly, coops the current mayhem in Copenhagen to do it. “See… even the U.N. agrees, those bastard Americans are ruining the world” (err.. never mind about those communist Chinese).

  109. “the ones who call his long time readers ‘nazis’ is a little hard to take”

    no; as we’ve discussed before, it’s the ones who come to the table in bad faith.

    i don’t persoonally like either roblaw or alpha male, but at least the don’t troll, so i don’t mind their participation at all, but dreck/shite is pure troll.

    KEvron

  110. speak of the devil….

    KEvron

  111. oh, fuck off with your simplistic views, rob.

    KEvron

  112. Guzzeuntite — No conservative thinks Sen. McCain is a “saint.”

    No, but the media does. ;)

  113. Navvy

    Rob, ironically as soon as any socialist nation becomes tyranical they are assuming characteristics of traditional conservatism. This includes extreme nationalism, militarism and a crackdown on social undesirables. You may have an issue with this as a classic liberal, but having thrown your hat in with the religious and militaristic right, your complaints have lost credibility.

    You might not think it’s fair, but when a “socialist” government turns to the military and starts taking apart freedoms, it’s falling back on the old conservatives favourites.

    Nobody is claiming the Nazis were libertarians, but they were indeed conservative.

  114. Oh. Do tell oh wise man Kevvie.. your suggestion is that, by definition, an economic philosophy makes you more or less likely to lean towards totalitarianism?

    My point is that we have lots of examples of socialism that have no sense of fascism.. as we do with capitalism.

    If you stopped being such a hater for two minutes, you might see that, more or less, I’m agreeing with you.

    While I don’t agree with socialism as a broad plan for an effective society, I don’t think, in and of itself it has much to do with fascism.. or nazism.

  115. Ti-Guy

    Why don’t you explain all of that to Guzzie, Rob?

  116. “your suggestion is that….”

    here we go….

    KEvron

  117. The fact that almost no one who advocates “socialism” is really advocating socialism anymore.

    What people on Canada or America’s left want nowadays is a mixed capitalist/social market economy like they have in Scandinavia. It’s pretty hard to argue that Sweden or Finland resemble Nazi Germany. In many ways they are less totalitarian than the U.S. (They certainly have few people in prison per capita.) and seem to have a fairly good balance between private enterprise and public educational/social policy that keep the poor from falling too far behind. They are relatively high tax, high service societies that have had growth and prosperity rates similar to North America’s.

    I suspect they do it as well as they do because of cultural reasons that may not be duplicated in Anglo Saxon counties (because our values and worldview are so different than theirs) and I am sure they have their own sets of problems. But most people I know on the Left have that kind of vision in mind.

  118. Navvy.. when you suggest that typical “conservative” values are “extreme nationalism, militarism and a crackdown on social undesirables”.. well, to be fair, you could easily be describing the efforts of Mao Zedong or Fidel Castro.

    My point is that to be “conservative”, in my own mind, is to believe in the notion of individual liberty and responsibility, as opposed to collectivist responsibility, as under socialism, or, in some respects, “liberalism”.. though the current lables of “liberal” and “conservative” in our modern culture are almost comical.

    I mean, witness Barack Obama and the Democrats obtaining more funding from military and banking industry than the Republicans last election.. and the current group of idiot Republicans pushing for a health bill that requires citizens, under penalty of prosecution, to do business with private insurers.. well, enuf said..

    The point that I find is that efforts to oppress your citizens and remove individual liberty are easily married to either side of the political spectrum.. but that, by definition, socialism requires a greater degree of government involvement than, at least what I would consider, as Conservatism.

  119. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion TG.. and I suppose, by saying what I’m saying, I’m suggesting to Guzzie that the use of “fascism” as a tool to diminish the argument in favor of socialism is perhaps misplaced.

  120. ..though I could go on and on about why from my perspective socialism is a misplaced philosophy itself, having nothing to do with “freedom” as such.. and in any event, in modern democracy, even in the far right of the U.S. of A. under George Bush, Sr. and Jr., there is a mixture of socialist and capitalist policy anyway.. so, it’s a little bit silly to pretend that there is such a thing as a purely capitalist society anywhere int he world anyway, or that we would even want one.

  121. Ti-Guy

    . and I suppose, by saying what I’m saying, I’m suggesting to Guzzie that the use of “fascism” as a tool to diminish the argument in favor (sic) of socialism is perhaps misplaced.

    He *knows* that.

  122. Guzzeuntite

    “Socialism by definition includes redistribution to everyone no matter what “race” they belong to.”

    Oh, God, silly willy, what a knucklehead you are. You are wrong.

    This may be true of YOUR brand of socialism maybe (and for that you should be commended), but Germany’s brand of socialism, national socialism, did it just for its citizens — its NATIONALS.

    You really, really need to learn the history of socialism. Modern progressivism, a form of socialism that you seem to adhere to, is all for distributing wealth to all its victims — er I mean population (as if that were possible). National socialism is not.

  123. My point is that to be “conservative”, in my own mind, is to believe in the notion of individual liberty and responsibility

    My critique of this is that our existence and actions don’t occur in a vacuum. They have repercussions on others and on the planet. This is particularly true in a modern society when everyone is specialized and depends on others for food, shelter, transportation and protection.

    Conservatism does no better a job at preserving individual liberty and responsibility than liberalism. The former leads to hierarchy where some people have liberty while others don’t. The latter forces everyone to give up some liberty in order for everyone to be as free as possible.

    YMMV.

  124. Germany’s brand of socialism, national socialism, did it just for its citizens — its NATIONALS.

    Which makes it something else – right wing fascism. Not leftist socialism.

  125. Guzzeuntite

    “It’s pretty hard to argue that Sweden or Finland resemble Nazi Germany. In many ways they are less totalitarian than the U.S. (They certainly have few people in prison per capita.)”

    Someone, you don’t even know what totalitarianism is. Holy cats and dogs, you Leftist like to really reach for your definitions.

    No one is saying any country “resembles” Nazi Germany in the way we typically think of Nazi Germany. What I am saying is that the Nazis practiced a form of socialism. Many nations do. The US has many socialist policies (social security, welfare, medicare, corporate bailouts, etc.). Other countries, more so. We are all a little bit fascist.

    Because we are all a little bit socialist.

    I think this is a bad thing. I also think this arguement I see here that the Nazis were “conservative” or “right wing” is nonsense on stilts — because the evidence for it is non-existent.

    I, however, have provided some damn good evidence that the German National Socialists were just that: national socialists. They called themselve socialists, they had a socialist platform, and they implemented socialist policies. Case closed.

  126. Guzzeuntite

    ‘Which makes it something else – right wing fascism.” – Someone

    You are too dim for words. You have made up your own definition.

    Here is the leftist argument: A socialist that is a racist is a right-winger is a conservative.

    Why? Because no one on the left can possibly be racist.

    This is the dumbest argument that can possibly be made by man, but Someone, like leftists everywhere, just made it.

  127. tj.. I don’t really disagree with you.. but really, in Canada, most of us aren’t actually that far apart, really acknowledging of a mixture of private liberty and public duty, but moving farther up or down the spectrum of both where we disagree..

    Do we need more laws to tell us how to protect ourselves? (Seatbelts, helmets, smoking, etc.)

    On the one hand, the argument is that the state has a duty to protect us from ourselves and to lead an example of personal behavior which reduces risk of harm to it’s citizens.

    I would counter – by increasingly allowing the state to take that responsibility, as opposed to leaving it with the individual, are we diminishing the collective sense of personal responsibility in a broad sense.

    Where I see the breakdown in conservatism is with “social conservatism”, where SOME (not me) think that the state should be able to impose moral control over the population. To me.. that DOES approach the boundaries of fascism.

    So. Am I suggesting no socialized health care or education? Not for a moment. Are you suggesting the government privatize the auto industry (as opposed to just bailing them out from their own stupidity) I would guess not.

    But we have different visions of what our own long-term vision will offer society.. mine tending towards one end of government regulation (not being “none”) and yours tending towards the other end (not being “total”).

    The stupid thing is, within that spectrum even with our differences we should be able to engage eachother, understand our respective points, and come to some consensus or at least RESPECTFULLY disagree and let democracy work to test the victor’s theory.. however, particularly as of late, it seems easier to label eachother, and to retreat to our foxholes, entrenched that “my way is the only way.”

  128. “What I am saying is that the Nazis practiced a form of socialism.”

    what part of “who. fucking. cares.” eludes you, shit disturber?

    KEvron

  129. Ti-Guy

    I also think this arguement I see here that the Nazis were “conservative” or “right wing” is nonsense on stilts — because the evidence for it is non-existent.

    Stop lying.

  130. Guzzeuntite

    Guzzeuntite — No conservative thinks Sen. McCain is a “saint.”

    “No, but the media does.”

    Indeed they do. The mighty Maverick.

  131. “Do we need more laws to tell us how to protect ourselves? (Seatbelts, helmets, smoking, etc.)”

    if you’ll look closely, those kinds of laws are meant to protect the rest of us; we incur expense from your reckless behavior.

    KEvron

  132. Guzzeuntite

    “what part of “who. fucking. cares.” eludes you, shit disturber?” — KEvron

    I ALready TOld YOu: THe NAzis.

    ANd YOu, APparently. BUt EVeryone ELse SEems TO BE QUite PAssionate ABout IT.

    EXcept TI-GUy. TI-GUy IS JUst MAd.

  133. Holy cats and dogs, you Leftist like to really reach for your definitions.

    Holy cats and dogs, you’re so busy trolling you can’t even pay attention to the fact that I was responding to Rob H.’s point, not yours. I didn’t say the US was totalitarian, but it is more so given its incarceration rates. There is a spectrum.

    If you are finally coming around to the reality that the Nazi’s economic policies are no different than anyone else’s, fine. But the Nazis were right wing by definition: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

    They believed in a conservative and ethnic based social order
    They embraced Teutonic “tradition”.
    They believed in nationalism and rejected internationalism
    They believed in religion
    They believed in an economic hierarchy
    They were populist

  134. Rob:

    Thanks for your last post.

    But we have different visions of what our own long-term vision will offer society.. mine tending towards one end of government regulation (not being “none”) and yours tending towards the other end (not being “total”).

    The stupid thing is, within that spectrum even with our differences we should be able to engage each other, understand our respective points, and come to some consensus or at least RESPECTFULLY disagree and let democracy work to test the victor’s theory.. however, particularly as of late, it seems easier to label each other, and to retreat to our foxholes, entrenched that “my way is the only way.”

    I completely agree with this. Sometimes the American and Canadian blogs are so full of knee jerk liberal/conservative populism that there is much more heat than light.

    I tend to believe that our “cage match” media are at fault here. The days of loyal opposition seem to have faded. But we (including me) can do a better job at looking at the issues instead of labels.

  135. Do we need more laws to tell us how to protect ourselves? (Seatbelts, helmets, smoking, etc.)

    I would say yes. These laws happen because they are necessary. Innocent children die in cars because their parents don’t buckle them in. We pay through our medical system (both directly in Canada and indirectly in the U.S.) for accidents that could be prevented or minimized by seat belts and helmets. And smoking is a chosen habit. Those of us who don’t chose it shouldn’t be subjected to the discomfort. It wasn’t long ago that people smoked in offices, so employment options for those who didn’t want to be exposed were limited. I think the balance is better today.

  136. “ANd YOu, APparently.”

    you’ve got a contradiction going on. maybe your laborious style of typing distracted you.

    KEvron

  137. Thanks tj.. I appreciate your saying that.. and at I have to concede, there are times when I get pretty wound up and strident (ask TG).. but I try to keep an open mind or at last try to understand an argument, even if I don’t agree with it.

    And with regard to the media, I’m not sure if it’s not a “chicken and egg” situation. They create conflict by fashioning news in a way which seeks to sensationalize differences.. or they reflect a growing tendancy for people to see things in a polarized fashion.

    Certainly, we are much, much better in many respects than we were even a generation ago. The notion that I should be suprised by a doctor who happens to be a woman, or that I should be concerned over sharing a seat on a bus with a person with a different “hue” of their skin is something that, thankfully, is all but fading away.. and so in that respect, “differences” between us have faded in a very positive way.

    However – I think the new “bigotry” is, perhaps, economic. We judge people, more and more, not by the color of their skin, but by the color of their money. And, I think, this as much as anything in modern society, leads to polarization. The middle and lower-middle class despise the wealthy and blame them for their not having “enough stuff”, and the wealthy suspect the middle class of reaching into their wallet to take away “their stuff”.

  138. don’t ingore the lateral effects, ‘dan; insurance rates, state and fed resources, reduced productivity, etc. in a way, we all end up covering some of the expense. fucking communist nazis!

    KEvron

  139. Guzzeuntite

    “I didn’t say the US was totalitarian, but it is more so given its incarceration rates.”

    The logic escapes me, unless you are talking about the incarceration of political prisoners. By this measure, the US is no more totalitarian that Norway and Cuba is totalitarian. But I bet you didn’t mean it this way, because I bet you don’t know what totalitarianism is.

    “They believed in a conservative and ethnic based social order”

    This is self defining, you ass. What kind of “conservative social order” did the Nazis believe in? Killing the Jews? Killing the Gypsies? Nationalizing the economy? Having a leader who was a vegetarian? Further, an ethnic-based social order is not “conservative.” Their socialist economic platform was not conservative in any way as I have proved.

    They embraced Teutonic “tradition”.

    Are you seriously saying embracing “tradition” (of any sort) cannot be “progressive”? Would a Red Tory have anything to say about that?

    “They believed in nationalism and rejected internationalism”

    You can let go of the silly, can you? Socialism can fit quite comfortably within a single nation. I think you are confusing nationalism with patriotism and Marxism with more local brands of socialism (see China, Cuba, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, North Korea, for example).

    “They believed in religion.”

    Progressives can’t be religious? Ti-Guy, what do you think of that? Besides, the Nazis made damn sure the churches were subservient to the state, and Hitler pretty much despised the church. Learn history.

    “They believed in an economic hierarchy”

    No. No they didn’t. As I proved to you they believed in the state control of the economy. I’m not sure what this really even means exactly, but I, for one, don’t believe in economic hierarchy (mainly because I never heard of it, but it doesn’t sound good).

    “They were populist”

    So were the Bolsheviks. Most conservatives are not populists, but those that are are usually economic liberals but social traditionalists. Think Pat Buchannan (sp.). He is not the type of “conservative” conservative go for. Not me anyway.

  140. Guzzeuntite

    “you’ve got a contradiction going on. maybe your laborious style of typing distracted you.” — KEvron

    PErhaps. IT AIn’t EAsy.

  141. Ti-Guy

    You have to be on a lot coke to write that much so quickly, Guzz.

    My guess is that you’ve got help.

  142. Guzzeuntite

    “My guess is that you’ve got help.’ — Ti-Guy

    Yes: A lot of Coke™.

  143. Yes. It certainly doesn’t surprise me that the logic escapes you. You obviously don’t know what a Red tory is. Red tories are the most traditional and least progressive political faction in Canada.

    I don’t even know where to start with the rest. It’s just too stupid.

  144. Guzzeuntite

    “Red tories are the most traditional and least progressive political faction in Canada.”

    Does this include Red Tory of this blog?

    “I don’t even know where to start with the rest. It’s just too stupid.”

    No. It’s not. So address it now.

  145. The term ‘red tory’ is to promote a variety of capitalism which respects traditional values, local communities and allows the ‘little man’ to participate in the economy as contrasted to neoliberalism, socialism and communism.

    Red Toryism derives largely from a British Tory and imperialist tradition that maintained the unequal division of wealth and political privilege among social classes can be justified, if members of the privileged class contribute to the common good. Red Tories supported traditional institutions like religion and the monarchy, and maintenance of the social order.

    I don’t believe that RT supports religion or the monarchy but arguably yes to the rest.

    No. It’s not. So address it now.

    Why waste my time? I have dinner plans and have a subway to catch.

  146. “PErhaps. IT AIn’t EAsy.”

    nor effective, so i hope you’ll continue. take ‘em where i can get ‘em….

    KEvron

  147. Ti-Guy

    Oh, the migraine.

    Someone just kill it, please.

  148. CWTF

    Why don’t you explain all of that to Guzzie, Rob?
    Are you kidding me?
    Rob prefers to spew a lot of his own nuttiness knowing that he appears sane compared to the rest of the Conservatives….

    I do wish Rob would contribute more to Liberty issues and how the Conservatives are on a power grab. He is one of them after all.

  149. “I don’t believe that RT supports religion or the monarchy”

    i think “yes” on the monarchy, but he doesn’t dote on them. i could be wrong. on both counts.

    KEvron

  150. Guzzeuntite

    “Oh, the migraine. Someone just kill it, please.” — Ti-Guy

    Easier solution: Stop reading.

    Likely you won’t because you are a masochist and you love me.

  151. Guzzeuntite

    “nor effective, so i hope you’ll continue. take ‘em where i can get ‘em….”

    IT’s EFfective — BEcause IT AMuses ME. THe OCcassional FUck UPs MEan THat EVen I HAve FOIbles. (THis WIll COme AS A SHock TO TI-GUy.)

  152. Guzzeuntite

    Interesting. Nonetheless, on the web, I have never run into a self-described red Tory who (in addition to many other faults and some admirable qualities) didn’t have generally left-of-center economic inclinations. Maybe this comes from their inherent anti-Americanism (and I say that in a “non-judgmental” sense).

  153. Guzzeuntite

    I think even Ti-Guy has described himself as a Red Tory. Or at least more of that than anything else.

  154. Ti-Guy

    Hold a bag over its head and keep it there until it stops squirming.

  155. Guzzeuntite

    You’re still reading.

    What are you wearing, masochist?

  156. Ti-Guy

    Hold its head under water until the bubbles stop.

  157. “BEcause IT AMuses ME.”

    “that’s my story and i’m sticking to it!”

    if it’s any consolation, it amuses me, too. probably moreso (did i mention laborious and ineffective?).

    it’s been done before (been using the dual caps for more than five years, ever since my encounter with a particular, goose-stepping FReeper), so let me tell you how it’ll go: you’ll eventually come to terms with the fact that it’s not worth the effort. the mockery plainly doesn’t work and the irregular typing scheme is a nuisance, so you’ll finally abandon the gag. you’ll probably expect me to chide you about it, so you’ll have some equally inane response ready, but i’ll let it go without comment. i’ll just chuckle to myself. again.

    KEvron

  158. TofKW

    I have never run into a self-described red Tory who (in addition to many other faults and some admirable qualities) didn’t have generally left-of-center economic inclinations.

    You mean as opposed to the neo-liberal economic policies which the populist nitwits who call themselves the conservative movement have swallowed hook-line-&-sinker? How do you like the current economic climate which those policies have wroth? Only through massive socialist bailouts to big banks are we managing to avoid a depression. The economic theories of Milton Friedman and the Austrian school fools are not conservative my friend, for they conserve neither prosperity nor probriety.

  159. Guzzeuntite

    TofKW:

    “have wroth”?

    Quoi? What has David Lee Wroth?

    “Only through massive socialist bailouts to big banks are we managing to avoid a depression.”

    Don’t you believe the government spin. The US bailout has certainly been massive on an unprecedented scale. The results have been more jobs lost, higher unemployment, a sinking US dollar, and prospects of runaway inflation as a result. It’s interesting that the countries that had the least “government bailouts, have most successfully weathered the credit crisis. Brilliant, George. Really brilliant, Barrack.

    Our last socialist-leaning president, FDR, tried something similar but it took a world war to get us out of our funk. The Big Deal was a big failure. Social Security is going broke only slightly slower than Johnson’s Medicare. The socialist’s proposed solution? More of the same. Much more. It is always thus.

    Besides, this is all beside the point, which was that Nazis were socialists. I am not trying to debate socialism’s efficacy. The National Socialist Workers Party of Germany was just what its name implied. You readers should read the history of your economic positions. The original proponents of National Socialism and Fascism were not shy of proclaiming their socialist bona fides. The Left just wants us all to forget it. So, they redefine Fascism and Nazism as “right wing” in order to distant themselves from it. Stalin was the first to use the term “Fascist” as an epithet used against people and policies he didn’t like. The Left is now the first to accuse any conservative of being a Nazi or Fascist. It is truly funny to see KEvron vainly trying to invoke Godwin’s Law against me in this thread. Ironic even. Of course, I have accused none of you of being a Nazi (despite Ti-Guy’s lie to the contrary). I don’t believe any of you are. My point has consistently been one thing: The National Socialists were socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. The Fascists were socialists. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. The Leninists were socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. Stalin was a socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. Mao was a socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. Fidel Castro is a socialist. This is a fact you socialist have to live with. Che Guevara was a socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. North Korea is socialist. This is a fact you socialist have to live with. Hugo Chavez is a socialist. This is a fact you socialist have to live with. Mugabe is a socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. The most totalitarian, oppressive, and murderous regimes have been socialist. This is the cold hard fact you socialists have to live with.

    Furthermore, this should be a cautionary tale for all of you, and that is why you should familiarize yourselves with the history of socialism.

  160. Guzzeuntite

    “so you’ll finally abandon the gag.” — KEvron

    NOt LIkely — AT LEast NOt INtentionally. YOu ALmost NEver SAy ANything SUbstantive. SO, IT’s EAsy TO TRade SIlly QUips, WHich MInimize THe LIkelihood OF ERror ANd REduce THe EFfort ON MY PArt. ANd, FOrtunately FOr ME, YOu ARe ONly ABout HAlf AS CLever AS YOu THink YOu ARe.

    “… goose-stepping FReeper ….”

    I HEreby INvoke GOdwin’s LAw.

  161. drake

    Guzzentite 9:32 post, excellent historical recapitulation of examples in history of the misery that socialism has wrought wherever it has been tried or is currently being tried.

    It brings to mind the words of that sage American, George Santayana:

    “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

  162. Guzzeuntite

    That is the lesson.

    We should also stop pretending that countries like Sweden, Norway, France, or Germany are socialist in order to hold them out as “good” socialism. Every western country has some socialism baked in. There is no doubt about this. We can debate about the “right amount” of socialism to have, but whenever it has been imposed in toto, misery has accrued.

  163. Ti-Guy

    “have wroth”?

    Quoi? What has David Lee Wroth?”

    I knew the Guzzler would pounce on that.

    Tear its wings off and watch it writhe in agony. That is how it treats others, after all.

  164. Ti-Guy

    Guzzentite 9:32 post, excellent historical recapitulation of examples in history of the misery that socialism has wrought wherever it has been tried or is currently being tried.

    How would you know? Did you fact check it? Did you even verify that it wasn’t…stolen intellectual property? Oh right, you don’t care about that…

  165. Guzzeuntite

    “Tear its wings off and watch it writhe in agony. That is how it treats others, after all.”

    I learned from the master:

    “Oh, and learn the difference between “censure” and “censor. If you don’t know it, you’re too illiterate to participate in these discussion,” said Ti-Guy much earlier in this thread. http://redtory.wordpress.com/2009/12/17/twas-the-night-before-cloture/#comment-36949

  166. Guzzeuntite

    I was much gentler than you, Ti-Guy.

  167. Ti-Guy

    That was proportional response, after it became clear to me that Drake is an inveterate liar (on top of being a thief).

    You notice I don’t pounce on billg; I think he’s well-intentioned and comes by his opinions honestly. I only go after people I *know* are capable of doing better, but choose to be assholes instead.

    That’s the life works. When I end up acting like an asshole, I deserve what I get.

  168. Guzzeuntite

    De excusibus non curat lex.

  169. drake

    Well this has been an interesting discussion and debate (for the most part).

    I doubt that anyone will be able to refute Guzzeuntite’s 9:32 post of this morning. He hit it out of the park. So I think it’s time to declare a winner here.

    So the winner is:

    Guzzeuntite.

    The losers are, in no particular order:

    Ti-Guy, KEvron, toujourdans.

    Winner of whiniest comment of the thread goes to Ti-Guy for this comment (December 18th, 1:57 pm):

    “”rt, why you indulge these trolls is beyond me.”

    Well, I can understand why he does, but the ones who call his long time readers “nazis” is a little hard to take.

    And make no mistake: Guzz thinks all of us here are nazis.”

    Anyway, it was entertaining. Ti-Guy, KEvron, and toujoursdan, you guys will have to pick up your game. It’s always a little humiliating to be beaten on your home turf. But suck it up, I know you can all do better. So long till the next time.

  170. Ti-Guy

    Where did you plagiarise that from?

  171. drake

    Oops, I forgot to bang the gavel.

    This debate is over!

    We will make an exception for anyone who wants to attempt to refute Guzzeuntite’s 9:32 a.m. comment. And good luck with that.

    (Drake bangs gavel.)

  172. ” KEvron vainly trying to invoke Godwin’s Law against me in this thread”

    “as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving nazis or hitler approaches 1.”

    ta-da!

    KEvron

  173. “NOt LIkely”

    splendid!

    KEvron

  174. Guzzeuntite

    “as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving nazis or hitler approaches 1.”

    Indeed. The Guzzeuntite Corollary:

    In a Leftist blog’s comment thread in which a conservative comments, the certainty of the Nazi/Fascist/racist accusation being raised against the conservative within three comments is assured.

  175. TofKW

    The most totalitarian, oppressive, and murderous regimes have been socialist. This is the cold hard fact you socialists have to live with.

    Actually the most totalitarian, oppressive, and murderous leaders have all been populists. This is the cold hard fact you ignorant fools who follow populist movements have to live with.

  176. TofKW

    By the way you’ve won nothing by your pathetic rants here. The Nazis were fascists. Only fuckwads like yourself would debate otherwise.

  177. drake

    Oops, forgot to add ToFKW to the list of losers along with Ti-Guy, KEvron, and toujoursdan who I listed above. I’d forgotten about his contributions to the debate.

  178. Ti-Guy

    Too bad you don’t know when to quit when you’re ahead. I found your “gaveling” comment mildly amusing.

    Now, you just sound like an asshole again.

  179. Just move on, Drake. Plenty of more battles to fight.

    No need to call people “losers” just because you find them disagreeable.

    By the way, try that tactic over at one of your lovely Bloggin’ Tory sites and see how that works out for you. Go slag all of the usual commenters there and see what kind of reaction you get. Then come back and compare notes… :)

  180. Guzzeuntite

    “The Nazis were fascists. Only fuckwads like yourself [Guzzeuntite] would debate otherwise” — TofKW

    Never noticed this bit of idiocy.

    One, bravo, you cut be to the quick with “fuckwad.”

    Two, I have already said that the Nazis were like fascists. This is because they were both socialist.

    It truly amazes me how low the reading comrpehension skills of some of you lefties are. You don’t read me (fine, I guess, I’m not saying anything you want to hear), you don’t read the links I provide you, and you don’t read history.

    Here is what I said about the Nazis and Fascists, TofKW: “The National Socialists were socialist. This is a fact you socialists have to live with. The Fascists were socialists. This is a fact you socialists have to live with.” These facts are indisputable.

    Look, I realize it’s important for most of you to want to define nationalistic socialism as “conservative,” but it’s nothing more than pure sophistry.

    “Actually the most totalitarian, oppressive, and murderous leaders have all been populists.” — TofKW

    Like SWNICES, you just like to make shit up. Don’t you? What a ridiculous statement, unless you mean to say all the regimes (socialists all) that I listed in my comment at 9:32 on Dec. 19th were also populist. As in, for example, “the Peoples Repubic of China,” or the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.”

    Truly, boy, you are grasping at straws.

  181. Guzzeuntite

    Heh, heh. I said, “repubic.”

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