Thank you Mr. Dosanjh for correcting some of the more ridiculous and patently false assertions being made in the USA by opponents of healthcare reform!
I have one question though… Why isn’t Leona Aglukkaq out there making the case and defending the Canadian system?
Update: You may recall that way back on July 10th I pointed out that Shona Holmes (the disgruntled Canadian featured in an advertisement by the anti-reform front-group “Patients United Now”) was a big, fat LIAR. Well, it seems that some other people are taking note of that fact now too…
116 Comments
July 23, 2009 at 3:26 am
She’s very busy with messed up files. Apparently, Jack Layton was on The Ed Show (MSNBC).
Frank Luntz is giving the GOP their talking points – the usual fear stuff. Now, all they need is Luntz or someone else in the know to point out that Layton’s NDP are socialists……just sayin
July 23, 2009 at 3:28 am
Meant to add – Aaron Wherry has Layton’s segment on his blog site (Macleans). I haven’t listened – but Wherry says if any indication from Ed Shultz…..no one cares about Tommy Douglas – they want answers.
July 23, 2009 at 4:21 am
I heard him discussing Luntz’s talking points, followed by clips of Republicans in Congress faithfully parroting them.
Speaking of Ed, I thought this was pretty funny:
Yeah, I’d like to see Rush go one-on-one with Big Eddie, whether it be a debate or whatever.
July 23, 2009 at 4:30 am
Why isn’t Leona Aglukkaq out there making the case and defending the Canadian system?
I think it’s an issue of diplomacy. Government’s deal with their foreign equivalents. I think it would be lame for the Government to send out the Minister to defend against attacks from GOP rednecks and their surrogates.
This entire discussion has been irritating, because it’s been conducted the way Embassy Magazine indicates here:
The Canada-slagging coming from Congress should be a considered a welcome opportunity to defend and explain our system, but with characteristic Canadian smugness we sometimes paint the U.S. system as a total disaster when it serves many well.
This is definitely not “a welcome opportunity” for officials to explain and defend the system (which it too complicated an issue to explain in sound bites anyway). The only thing that should be happening is that the egregious lies should be corrected. Other than that, this endless political circus that’s taking place in the US is really none of our business.
July 23, 2009 at 4:48 am
Meant to add – Aaron Wherry has Layton’s segment on his blog site (Macleans). I haven’t listened – but Wherry says if any indication from Ed Shultz…..no one cares about Tommy Douglas – they want answers.
Wasn’t that awful? Layton pretty much conducted a political ad for the NDP. I was afraid he might start going off about “from each according to his abilities…” What a missed opportunity.
July 23, 2009 at 4:50 am
The USA needs health care reform but so does Canada.
If Canada’s system was perfect and people didn’t fear dying without treatment, then not one Canadian would go to Canada for health care. Not one. Not even Belinda Stronach could resist the best care in California.
Until Canadians admit our system is far from perfect then wemany will continue to have to go to the USA for treatment and surgery not available in Canada.
Why is there no health care debate in Canada?
July 23, 2009 at 4:52 am
meant to say *”then not one Canadian would go to the USA for health care”.
The fact that any Canadian would have to go to the USA foe care proves our system is not perfect.
We have to quit comparing ourselves to the USA. There is no comparison.
The people in my country of Canada have no control over anything. Nothing.
Hopefully my one vote in the next 2 years can get us health care reform here in Canada.
I doubt it though.
July 23, 2009 at 4:53 am
meant to say *”then not one Canadian would go to the USA for health care”.
The fact that any Canadian would have to go to the USA for care proves our system is not perfect.
We have to quit comparing ourselves to the USA. There is no comparison.
The people in my country of Canada have no control over anything. Nothing.
Hopefully my one vote in the next 2 years can get us health care reform here in Canada.
I doubt it though.
July 23, 2009 at 4:56 am
But wait there’s more! If you call in the next 2o minutes John will double his comment postings and we’ll throw in a bonus tube of Mighty Putty!
July 23, 2009 at 5:00 am
John — At one time I believe that healthcare was the number one issue to voters. Lately however it’s taken somewhat of a back seat to the economy and (at times) environmental concerns.
That said, it’s certainly been hotly debated for many years and most people will freely admit that the system needs a good deal of “reform” to address the problems that exist. After all, how many “Royal Commissions” into the subject have there been over the last 20 years with countless recommendations for making improvements?
Nobody is claiming that our system is perfect — far from it. The bottom line however is that it’s more fundamentally equitable, reasonably good in most cases, and cost-effective when compared to the alternatives.
July 23, 2009 at 5:04 am
Maybe John wants more homeopathic solutions.
July 23, 2009 at 5:06 am
Ti-Guy — Perhaps it is none of our business, but I find the egregious LIES about our system to be quite annoying — especially so when they end up impacting the “debate” about healthcare here in our own country. Witness people who really should know better (aka many a Bloggin’ Tory) that faithfully regurgitate the nonsense and fabrications being manufactured by the private healthcare industry and extreme right-wing ideologues in the USA.
July 23, 2009 at 5:17 am
I spent time in an emergency room in Lackawanna NY in the 1990s. It was great to “ensure” my insurance was up to date and covered my visit before asking me anything else. I got to watch a crackhead flip out over an 8 hour stay and saw the doctor for a total of 5 minutes. They billed me $3500 for a gauze wrapper and noone in the entire health care system told the people I was with what hospital I was taken too.
When I got back to Kitchener, I ended up going to my doctor and got it seen to properly. No line up for an X-Ray and no bills (or crackheads). I can live with a wait if I know that it won’t bankrupt me and devastate my life after treatment.
July 23, 2009 at 5:24 am
Red, what is being told in the USA that isn’t true.
Long wait times in Canada. True.
People dying waiting for treatment in Canada. True.
People having to go to America to get treatment unavailable in Canada. True.
People going to the USA to get better care. Belinda Stronach. True.
Doctor’s moving from Canada to the USA to make 42% more money.
We all agree that the USA needs major , major health care reform. But with the facts above, not one fair minded person can pretend Canada’’s system doesn’t need major reform itself.
All I hear in Canada is how shitty USA care is. But it can’t be that shitty if it already has near-universal health coverage in the form of Medicare, Medicaid, veterans’ hospitals, emergency rooms and tax-deductible employer-provided health care — all government creations.
So people in Canada need to quit bullshitting about how the USA leaves people to die in the streets. Horseshit.
The USA needs to reform the costs of health care. But saying the care itself is lousy is bullshit and Belinda Stronach is proof otherwise.
Canadians have a knee jerk reaction that Canadian =good while the USA=bad. That is very simplistic and very untrue.
As a matter of fact, most of the medical technology, medicine, procedures and treatments come from technology exported from the USA.
July 23, 2009 at 5:31 am
Pfft. “The people in my country of Canada have no control over anything.”
But besides the lies (and what must be willful ignorance on the part of many Canadians), I do also find it frustrating that the discussion always focuses on the differences between our system and our neighbours’. Of the “developed” countries (however counted), the US is the only one without some sort of universal public system. All the discussion over health care here frames these two systems as somehow the only policy options available. And the details don’t seem to matter to anyone.
Jeepers, this gets me going. How Canadians have lucked into some half-decent public policies when they couldn’t care less about educating themselves is beyond me.
July 23, 2009 at 5:33 am
So we need to repair the system so doctors can make scads of money and Belinda Stronach can avoid a trip to California?
“As a matter of fact, most of the medical technology, medicine, procedures and treatments come from technology exported from the USA.”
Please provide proof for your fact.
“So people in Canada need to quit bullshitting about how the USA leaves people to die in the streets. Horseshit.”
Bullshit right back at you. Unless the state has a good samaritan law you could find your ass booted to the street if you dont have the right coverage.
July 23, 2009 at 5:35 am
Actually Martin, I dont mind the French system or the NHS. Ive experienced the NHS and despite its critics Ive experienced much worse (the US).
But Belinda Stronach never went to those countries so it kind of defeats John’s argument.
July 23, 2009 at 5:37 am
Martin, gimme the proof bud.
Show me how my 1 vote every 2 to 4 years does anything for health care reform.
Canadian politicians have a free ride and must toe the party line.
There is no towing the party line in the USA as you can see that it’s the Blue Dog Dem’s who are holding back Obama’s health plan.
In Canada you would never see a Liberal hold back a Liberal plan. That would usually get you kicked out of caucus.
The USA is a real democracy where the people have a say and the politicians understand that.
I can give you link after link after link showing town hall meetings with American law makers where the public is literally bitching at them and demanding they vote a certain way.
If you can show me ONE town hall where a Liberal candidate gets hardball questions by a fellow Liberal.
It will never happen.
If Obama had Canada’s parlimentary system his plan would already be law.
But not in the USA where people have a say.
After all, I can’t even vote for my Prime Minister.
What’s up with that?
July 23, 2009 at 5:43 am
One single vote will make the same difference in the US and Canada. You need a majority of votes John. The only system that works with one person calling the shots is a dictatorship and we’ve already got the Sweater pegging for that position.
You really think people have a say in the US? Have you ever looked up what rights they lost during Shrub? Or maybe check out what police entrapment laws are in the US. Thanks, but I’ll take my chances up here.
“If you can show me ONE town hall where a Liberal candidate gets hardball questions by a fellow Liberal.”
Oh yeah and the Puffster Economic Update was a prime example of hard hitting Conservative journalism. Anything that Duffy or the others lobbed at Harper in the last election was a softball at best. So bollocks to that!
“After all, I can’t even vote for my Prime Minister.
What’s up with that?”
Well it’s called Parliamentary Democracy. I dont expect you to understand it because you dont choose to. By the way. I heard Belinda Stronach has been to the US.
July 23, 2009 at 5:44 am
What the hell are you yammering about John? Any data available will tell you that at least 70% of the Canadian population is satisfied with the healthcare system while 8 out of ten prefer it to the American one. So yeah, your vote means nothing because you are not anywhere close to being in the majority. Deal with it.
July 23, 2009 at 5:45 am
John — Right then. Pack your bags, mate and shove off for the Jeebus-lovin’ promised land of DEMOCRACY! Hallelujah!
What’s holding you back?
July 23, 2009 at 5:46 am
Don’t think the USA is responsible for most of the medical breakthroughs we see today in Canada.
Read this link…..
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/inventors/medicine.shtml
Enjoy.
July 23, 2009 at 5:47 am
“What’s holding you back?”
Lol one of those court ordered ankle collars?
July 23, 2009 at 5:50 am
What’s holding me back from moving to the USA?
Welfare.
July 23, 2009 at 5:51 am
“http://www.enchantedlearning.com/inventors/medicine.shtml”
How about providing a link that is:
a) not painful to read due to typeface/contrast/tendency to use bold at inappropriate times.
b) not user generated and controlled. The articles there are lightweight at best and they have left very few links to corroborate anything.
That’s the funny thing about proof John, it requires the ability to back it up.
July 23, 2009 at 5:52 am
Food stamps not your thing John?
July 23, 2009 at 5:53 am
Nothing is good for a Liberal.
2+2=4. But no it doesn’t .
I gave you the link and you tell me you can’t understand it?
Really?
Or is it you don’t want to understand.
July 23, 2009 at 5:54 am
“As a matter of fact, most of the medical technology, medicine, procedures and treatments come from technology exported from the USA.”
In London alone there is the Lawson Health Research Institute, The Robarts Research Institute, The Schulich School of Medicine and Dentistry, The Fowler-Kennedy Clinic, and University Hospital. As they often work in collaboration with researchers in the U.S., or get funding for studies from U.S. companies, and as data and results are shared at international conferences, it may be difficult for you to paint the U.S. system as standing alone at the top of the hill.
July 23, 2009 at 5:55 am
“Food stamps not your thing John?”
No, just welfare, baby bonus, and all the other goodies I get for free from my government.
Including health care.
July 23, 2009 at 5:58 am
So you live off the government teat then complain about it? How Conservative of you.
July 23, 2009 at 6:00 am
Let’s start with this.
Out the 50 largest pharmaceutical and biotech companies ranked by healthcare revenue as of 2008, the USA had 21 companies listed including 12 out of the top 17.
How many companies are in Canada.
NONE.
Not one.
There is all the proof you need that the USA gives Canadians the care they brag about.
Not one Canadian company is on the list.
Did you know that?
Why is that?
July 23, 2009 at 6:02 am
I guess we can go tit-tat with John’s list of breakthroughs. His list covers the U.S. Mine is just from London hospitals.
Medical Breakthroughs>
A silly exercise to be sure, but the researchers I know are doing great work.
July 23, 2009 at 6:06 am
I see John Leanord is another one of these tiresome, self-loathing, American-wannabee Canadians.
Buying into US propaganda and bullshit about their Democracy (where no one votes and money reigns Supreme), their Healthcare System (which is bankrupting their businesses, and denies coverage to people based on Privatee-Industry administrative fiat), and their Constitution (which is counter-checked to the point of stasis and corrupted by excessive lobbying and bribery).
I suspect “John” is in his twenties. At best.
Listen “John” … if you don’t like it here, and if you love the USA so much, you have one option open to you: Get the Hell out of my Country.
July 23, 2009 at 6:06 am
Pharmaceutical and biotech companies are medical research companies. Not part of a health care system.
You are comparing drug research with a family doctor. Apples and oranges.
Do you think that when you walk into an ER that those pharmies and biotechs make a difference?
Nurse: He has a broken leg.
Doctor: If only this was the USA. Then Pfizer or Glaxo-Smith Kline could heal this boy!
Why is that? Its because your argument is stupid.
July 23, 2009 at 6:11 am
My point is that without the USA, we would have no health care seeing how we have no companies that could produce anything.
Need an MRI? Thank the American doctor that invented it.
Need cancer drugs or chemo?
Thank the Yankee doctor that invented it.
Why would I move to the USA?
I’m not Jim Carrey or Avril Lavigne or Mario Lemeiux or Wayne Gretzky. Or Iggy for that matter.
I love my country.
But I can’t understand the hatred some wannabee Canadians have for the USA.
I have never heard any Canadian with any substance or celebrity criticize the USA.
Why do so many Canadians move to the USA every year.
I’ll email Wayne Gretzky and ask him why he chose to raise his family in the USA.
I’m still waiting for a response from Iggy on why he loves the USA so much when his followers hate her so much.
July 23, 2009 at 6:16 am
I don’t hate the US. Most of my family in North America lives there.
Im not a fan of twits that think that we’d be living in caves without the US.
And I hate Conservative types that think if you dont agree with their wingnuttery and bile 100% of the time you hate Canada.
Now stop being a retard.
July 23, 2009 at 6:18 am
“Im not a fan of twits that think that we’d be living in caves without the US.”
Take away the 85% of exports that Canada sells to the USA, and you would be living in a cave.
No doubt about it.
Now stop being a retard.
July 23, 2009 at 6:20 am
“Take away the 85% of exports that Canada sells to the USA, and you would be living in a cave.”
Yeah but without those raw materials from us they would be living in caves as well.
No doubt about it.
Use your head for more then a hatrack, poltroon.
July 23, 2009 at 6:25 am
Fine, they can have their MRIs and… uh… “cancer drugs or chemo”, but we’re taking our insulin, polio vaccine, pablum, the pacemaker and the artificial heart, among, I’m sure, hundreds of others. Christ this is tiresome.
July 23, 2009 at 6:26 am
“Fine, they can have their MRIs and… uh… “cancer drugs or chemo”, but we’re taking our insulin, polio vaccine, pablum, the pacemaker and the artificial heart, among, I’m sure, hundreds of others. Christ this is tiresome.”
I will enjoy my MRI and cancer meds while you can enjoy your pablum.
Give some pablum to sapphire as well.
July 23, 2009 at 6:27 am
I come back and I see the discussion is being dominated by the dumbest contributor who, I’m quite certain, is unreachable and unteachable.
Oh, liberals. Liberals, liberals, liberals….
July 23, 2009 at 6:29 am
I think it’s awesome how appropriate the wordpress avatars usually are. Uncanny.
July 23, 2009 at 6:30 am
as long as my pablum isnt laced with hallucinogenics like John’s, I’ll have mine with some freshly squeezed orange juice (brought back from California by Belinda Stronach).
John Leanord is nuts.
What’s with that?
July 23, 2009 at 6:31 am
The insulin was first isolated in 1916 by the scientist Nicolae Pavelescu.
Not a Canadian.
It was a scientist by the name of Dr Jonas Salk who, with the help of his colleagues at University of Pittsburgh Medical School, discovered the polio vaccine itself.
Are you all there NAVVY?
Canadians never invented the polio vaccine or the insulin.
Get your facts straight champ.
July 23, 2009 at 6:34 am
Red:
You may recall that way back on July 10th I pointed out that Shona Holmes (the disgruntled Canadian featured in an advertisement by the anti-reform front-group “Patients United Now”) was a big, fat LIAR. Well, it seems that some other people are taking note of that fact now too…
You were way ahead of the curve. It seemed to me at the time that some “journalist” somewhere would have started investigating this case to at least establish that the factual claims made here were accurate. But I didn’t see anything. And I searched Google news for a while after.
MacLean’s of course couldn’t look into it because Andrew Coyne is on the board of the directors for the organisation that’s backing Ms. Holmes.
July 23, 2009 at 6:35 am
Nicolae Pavelescu isolated insulin. He never created any that was used in a clinical situation.
Lobotomies were also created by an American. If the system is so good John then why dont you get one?
July 23, 2009 at 6:41 am
When Barry Stein learned the cancer in his colon had spread to his liver, he knew there wasn’t a minute to spare. To save his life, the 41-year-old Montreal lawyer needed surgery—but it kept getting postponed. The reason? Operating rooms were booked solid.
Frustrated at waiting, Stein sought other options. Logging on to the Internet and talking with everyone he could think of who might be able to help, he quickly found what he was looking for: an expert in New York who could perform three treatments to save his liver that were not available together in Canada. Within a week he was lying on an operating table in New York.
That was seven years ago. Today Stein, 48, is still going strong in his law office. “There’s no question that going to the United States saved my life,” he says.
Read the link and you will understand that the health care you so vigorously defend is actually killing people.
http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2003/04/health.html
There are stories like happening every day.
July 23, 2009 at 6:42 am
“Nicolae Pavelescu isolated insulin.”
Without Niclolai the Canadians would not have picked up the garbage.
July 23, 2009 at 6:47 am
Ti-Guy: Yep: all pretty much confirming my sad conclusion that Canadians are unable to have reasonable policy discussions without stopping to deal with inane hecklers from the uneducated right or, indeed, the loony left (no, John, I mean the real left– keep looking…not there yet…lefter still…).
Hard not to come back to the idea that the problem is with our education system. We used to have something called “civics.” I wonder what anyone learns in high school nowadays. Of course, we also used to have living examples of what real “socialism” was, so we didn’t confuse that with, say, a government insurance program. I wonder what’s happened?
July 23, 2009 at 6:48 am
Without the Canadians diabetics would have no insulin. Pavelescu never got it to the stage of public use.
If you truly love this country you’d treat its citizens and accomplishments with more respect.
July 23, 2009 at 6:51 am
“If you truly love this country you’d treat its citizens and accomplishments with more respect.”
If you truly love this country you would understand that the Canadian health care system is only identical to Cuba and Vietnam.
Pretty good company eh?
July 23, 2009 at 6:51 am
It’s pointless to argue the various applied technology that has come out the USA with respect to the diagnosis and treatment of health problems. Since the USA has controlled from 50% (after WW2) to 25% now of the World’s economy of course it will have an impressive record in that respect. In EVERY respect, for that matter. However breakthroughs in pure research arise everywhere; I bet John Leanord doesn’t know that stem cell research emerged first in Canada, for example.
Innovations in social policy, however, practically never arise in the US; certainly none since WW2. And when a particular problem is best solved with a political solution as opposed to a market-driven or technological solution, the US hasn’t offered the World much in a long time.
July 23, 2009 at 6:52 am
“And when a particular problem is best solved with a political solution as opposed to a market-driven or technological solution, the US hasn’t offered the World much in a long time.”
Give me one major politcal solution in world in the last 50 years where the USA was not involved somehow.
Ti-guy is confusing Canada with the USA.
Canada has no role in the world.
Nothing.Nada.Zilp.Zich.Nothing.
July 23, 2009 at 6:54 am
“If you truly love this country you would understand that the Canadian health care system is only identical to Cuba and Vietnam.”
Wow, I stand corrected. You already had the lobotomy.
July 23, 2009 at 6:55 am
“Canada has no role in the world.”
I guess peacekeeping and diplomacy don’t count in the Conservatroll world.
July 23, 2009 at 6:55 am
Social policy in Canada is engineered by the courts. Not the public or the majority.
Activist Liberal judges change the laws to fit their ideology.
If that’s called social justice, then so be it.
But Chretien in 1999 said marriage was between one man and one woman.
What happened after is beyond me.
Just one example how ’social justice’ in Canada is not the decision of the people, but activist judges and their fellow ideological elites.
July 23, 2009 at 6:56 am
Okay the wingnut is now in full bloom.
July 23, 2009 at 6:57 am
I for one don’t want to live in John Leanord’s Canada where one is ruled by lynch mobs enforcing the will of the majority and damn the courts and laws!
July 23, 2009 at 7:00 am
Canadians were responsible for the cultivation of the poliovirus that made a vaccine possible… but I apologize, doesn’t seem that information is on wikipedia, so completely foreign to you. But Ti-Guy’s right, this is a complete waste of time.
July 23, 2009 at 7:02 am
“I guess peacekeeping and diplomacy don’t count in the Conservatroll world.”
I was hoping you would take this road.
Here is what Michael Iggy Ignatieff said about peacekeeping and diplomacy in Canada.
His words not mine,
‘Bogus’ peacekeeping?
It wasn’t long ago that Michael Ignatieff had harsh words for Canada
‘Bogus’ peacekeeping?Michael Ignatieff, Liberal leader, is lavish in his adoration for the country and the people he wishes to lead. His recently published book, True Patriot Love, which dovetailed with his ascension to the Liberal party leadership, is replete with fuzzy bromides about Canada and its “quietly but intensely patriotic” citizens.
Yet Michael Ignatieff, Harvard professor and public intellectual, was once slightly more harsh toward his native land. Following a 2005 lecture at the University of Dublin’s Trinity College, Ignatieff excoriated Canadians for trading on Canada’s “entirely bogus reputation as peacekeepers” for 40 years and for favouring “hospitals and schools and roads” over international citizenship. “If you are a human rights defender and you want something done to stop [a] massacre, you have to go to the Pentagon, because no one else is serious,” Ignatieff said.
There you have it.
Your leader, Michael Iggy Ignatieff telling the world that Canada’s reputation as “peacekeepers”
is entirely “bogus”.
He also said as a human rights defender (which all Liberals are supposed to be) you need the Pentagon to stop a massacre cause no-on else is serious.
Now after reading your leader’s on words, are you going to change your “bogus” position on “peacekeeping” and “diplomacy”.
Iggy thinks your position is “bogus”.
Who should I believe? You or your dear leader?
July 23, 2009 at 7:04 am
Martin:
Hard not to come back to the idea that the problem is with our education system.
You can’t learn everything you need to know as an adult in high school (I know I didn’t…and I’m the smartest person I know…
). I really blame the news media more than anything.
How many of the fundamental issues with respect to health care have the media dealt with in a concerted fashion lately? It’s just like this discussion here…providing venues for uninformed opinion and creating false “debates” in which everything gets lost in a cacophony of pointless chatter.
Worst of all, the media takes its cues from events happening in the US, for which Canadians have become a captive audience.
July 23, 2009 at 7:04 am
Jeezus John you need to get laid.
End of discussion.
July 23, 2009 at 7:09 am
Hey Leanord…I’m not going to respond to you so don’t ask me any questions. I know how “wingnut inquisitions” work and they’re always pointless.
July 23, 2009 at 7:11 am
Hey Leanord…I’m not going to respond to you so don’t ask me any questions. I know how “wingnut inquisitions” work and they’re always pointless.
I don’t want you to respond to anything I wrote.
I would like a response to what Mr Ignatieff said.
Any answers or are you so pissed off at him that you just have to forget about it and sluff it off.
July 23, 2009 at 7:13 am
Ti-Guy, I think someone thinks you are Ignatieff.
July 23, 2009 at 7:13 am
Sapphire think that Canada is a ‘peacekeeper’, while her dear leader thinks that position is “bogus”.
Who do i believe Ti-Guy?
The Emerald Sapphire and Steel or the Russian Cosmopolitan?
July 23, 2009 at 7:15 am
Okay the wingnut is now in full bloom.
The wingnuts should thank us for providing the rich, moist loam in which they thrive. Now if they could only rise above the status of plants, I’d be convinced that we’re not wasting our time.
But we are…we are…
July 23, 2009 at 7:16 am
Lol does that make wingnuts lichen?
July 23, 2009 at 7:21 am
“The wingnuts should thank us for providing the rich, moist loam in which they thrive. Now if they could only rise above the status of plants, I’d be convinced that we’re not wasting our time.
But we are…we are…”
Great answer Ti-Guy.
It really must suck to not be able to defend your dear leader.
Another OSAP funded “university” diatribe coming up Ti-Guy?
July 23, 2009 at 7:24 am
time for a station ID
July 23, 2009 at 7:25 am
“It’s disgusting in my own country, and I love my country, Canada, but they would rather bitch about their rich neighbour to the south than actually pay the note,” he said, in response to a question about peacekeeping. “To pay the bill to be an international citizen is not something that they want to do.”\
How true? From who?
That quote is so true.
July 23, 2009 at 7:28 am
Doesn’t Iggy just ticke your Shanizzie?
He is the most truthful Liberal leader in Canadian history.
July 23, 2009 at 7:31 am
Hey Red have you read this?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-welsh/americans-lives-vs-insura_b_241703.html
Hopefully it puts the conversation back on topic and off of the current Conservative pant jizzing.
July 23, 2009 at 7:37 am
Lol does that make wingnuts lichen?
Don’t insult lichen in that fashion. Lichen are hardy plants that survive in the least hospitable environments and are one of the building blocks for what eventually becomes useful topsoil.
Wingnuts really represent the unintended consequences of greater technological sophistication, in that we’re dealing with a demographic that no longer *has* to think critically…about anything. What I’ve not got a handle on exactly is how this causes them to be so completely rage-filled all the time, but I suspect it’s a personality disorder that’s fundamental to conservatives. I believe, for them, critical thinking must physically hurt.
July 23, 2009 at 7:47 am
“we’re dealing with a demographic that no longer *has* to think critically…about anything. ”
“What I’ve not got a handle on exactly is how this causes them to be so completely rage-filled all the time”
They remind me of Daleks.
July 23, 2009 at 7:47 am
Sapphire: Ian Welsh’s story about ulcerative colitis (situations that are far more usual and that most of us have anecdotes for) sure puts Holmes’s brain pimple into perspective, doesn’t it?
July 23, 2009 at 7:53 am
<i.They remind me of Daleks.
It’s a serious issue, though. The few right wingers *I* know are really hostile to doubt and ambiguity. Which is understandable. But they seem to spend a lot of much time trying to resolve doubt and ambiguity by arguing aggressively with other people and looking to blame and vilify people who have nothing at all to do with anything, instead of educating themselves.
July 23, 2009 at 7:53 am
Yes it does. But facts and reality aren’t commodities that wingnuts deal in. Just anger, bluster and vitriol (kinda like Vic Toews).
July 23, 2009 at 7:55 am
“Don’t forget that the speech given by a U.S. president that most committed the United States to the promotion of human rights and democracy in the Arab world was given by George W. Bush,” he said. He later told the Irish Times that he was taken aback by the “waves of anti-American and anti-Bush feeling in an Irish audience.” It was in the question-and-answer session which followed, and which has never been reported, that Ignatieff was most critical of Canada.
Iggy is on the record saying George W Bush has given the greatest speech to the Muslim world about freedom and human rights.
Do you agree?
Yes or No/
Pretty simple answer. Not a university essay of course, but still simple.
July 23, 2009 at 8:01 am
The dalek thing was only partially silly. The hatred, intolerance and tendency to deal with situations using threat and intimidation are still there.
The right wingers I know have begun to descend into the anger pit as well. Funny, considering how arrogant they were in 2006 that they can’t take the heat now.
Reason and rationality aren’t part of the argument these days. Im not a fan of the usual wingnut conversation: Im going to state my opinion (which is right) then Im going to smear and intimidate you if you disagree. I just find my appetite for defending myself to assholes has never been that great.
I just wonder what the end result of all of this anger is besides a massive coronary? I can’t see how so much anger couldnt end up in either significant health issues or a police standoff.
I guess time will tell.
July 23, 2009 at 8:02 am
It’s amazing how objective critiquing of one’s society can be viewed as traitorous. It reminds me of the Ron Paulians who wanted to take the US back to 1776 without noting the return to slavery.
If one cannot criticize their country, how can they improve it?
July 23, 2009 at 8:03 am
Reason and rationality aren’t part of the argument these days. Im not a fan of the usual wingnut conversation: Im going to state my opinion (which is right) then Im going to smear and intimidate you if you disagree. I just find my appetite for defending myself to assholes has never been that great.
If you go back to everything I have posted today, you cannot find one factual error.
Maybe your emotions have gotten to you, but everything I have posted has been factual.
Sorry you can’t handle the truth about Mr Iggy Ignatieff.He is after all a Bush clone.
July 23, 2009 at 8:07 am
Hey Ti-guy,
Have you noticed how quickly the wingnuts have aped the “Iggy loves Bush” talking points considering how Harper was his rent boy for so many years.
Its sort of like wingnut “facts”. I guess if you confirm you said them its a very roundabout way of saying they’re true. Sort of like the “I apologize for your misunderstanding” that comes from politicians.
July 23, 2009 at 8:09 am
“Im going to state my opinion (which is right)”
If your right, does that mke Mr Iggy wrong.
I have no problem with you thinking you are right but I have a problem admitting I’m wrong when the facts prove otherwise.
Canada is a ‘warrior nation” not a ‘peacekeeping” nation.
your own leader denounced the myth as “bogus”.
how can you possible explain that when the facts prove Canada has never been a “peacekeeping” nation but rather a nation that has fought wars for freedom and survival. We have had peacekeeping duties but compared to our wars and the casualties involved, we are clearly a “warrior” nation.
Might not like the facts, but there they are.
And your leader, Mr Iggy Ignatieff agrees.
July 23, 2009 at 8:09 am
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/cuchulain/2009/04/stating-the-obvious-wingnuts-l.php
July 23, 2009 at 8:10 am
Wingnuts lie. And they never provide proof to their facts. Because they are lies.
July 23, 2009 at 8:11 am
Canada is a warrior nation?
July 23, 2009 at 8:14 am
Canadian peacekeeping history
http://www.lermuseum.org/ler/mh/1945topresent/canadasrole.html
http://www2.ucdsb.on.ca/athens/doors/peacekeeping2.htm
http://www.iaisp.uj.edu.pl/misje/missions.htm
http://archives.cbc.ca/war_conflict/peacekeeping/topics/659/
http://www.mapleleafweb.com/old/features/military/peace_keeping/canada.html
http://www.unac.org/peacekeeping/en/un-peacekeeping/fact-sheets/honouring-our-peacekeepers/
http://www.google.ca/search?q=canada+peacekeeping+history&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=wItoSofUEMW_lAf-scy8CQ&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11
You’re wrong John and I’ve just provided what those of us in the rational world call… proof.
July 23, 2009 at 8:14 am
You have yet to prove anything I said as a lie.
Are you so mentally simple that you can bullshit yourself into believing I’m lying without being able to prove anything I said as a lie?
A typical liberal.
No answers, no values, no morals, no policies, nothing but hatred for anything Conservative.
Grow up.
July 23, 2009 at 8:16 am
Please John, you have provided even less for proof. Once again your opinion is just that.
Why the generalizations? You dont even know me and so far have gotten most of it wrong.
No answers, no values, no morals, no policies, nothing but hatred for anything Liberal. – Sounds about as valid as your argument.
Grow up? Really? You should try that as well. Some meds or psych help might be good too.
July 23, 2009 at 8:19 am
You said Canada are a “peacekeping’ nation yet your Liberal leader calls that “bogus”.
Are you all there?
How am I lying when I’m using Iggy’s words?
My opinion here, all day long , has been based on facts.
If you point out even one falsehood, then I’ll admit I’m wrong.
Until then, wuit bullshitting.
July 23, 2009 at 8:19 am
Have you noticed how quickly the wingnuts have aped the “Iggy loves Bush” talking points considering how Harper was his rent boy for so many years.
I’m amazed at the turnaround. But then, the problem with wingnuts is that they can lie shamelessly or can’t really remember anything that happened more than a month ago.
The most despairing thing of all though, is that wingnuttery is influencing our mainstream media. We now have journalists poring over everything Ignatieff has written or said while Harper’s record continues to remain largely unexamined.
I can understand this; journalists are lazy. It’s much easier to review someone’s published record than try to establish the facts about someone who’s never had anything substantive to warrant documentation at all.
But it doesn’t make it right. And we’re all suffering for it…the wingnuts most of all.
July 23, 2009 at 8:21 am
I love how quit bullshitting is a Conspeak for “hey man I dont have a leg to stand on so quit bothering me”. I cannot find any proof for Canada is a warrior nation.
Using words out of context is bullshitting plain and simple. Critical thinking John, it’s an amazing thing to utilize. But that would be book lernin wouldnt it?
July 23, 2009 at 8:24 am
John Leanard (aka Jonathon) – this is a little lengthy – but a list of achievements from JUST “ONE” of our own:
Medical Breakthroughs
2009
LHSC became the first hospital in North America to use a robotic-arm neuron-angiogram machine in an operating room.
2008
LHSC is the first in North America to implant an insertable cardiac monitor that offers long-term and continuous monitoring for atrial fibrillation, the most common cardiac arrhythmia
LHSC performs the world’s first robotically-assisted intestinal bypass surgery for a patient with superior mesenteric artery (SMA) syndrome, also known as Wilkie’s syndrome, using the da Vinci® robot.
LHSC’s Sterile Processing Department is the first hospital in Canada to implement Censitrac software, tracking medical instruments at the individual level.
2007
Canada’s first totally endoscopic closed-chest robotic coronary artery bypass surgery on a patient’s beating heart is performed at LHSC
Canada’s first robotic-assisted common bile duct exploration using a da Vinci robot is performed at LHSC
2006
An LHSC team is one of two independent Canadian teams to first use new electroanatomical mapping technology to perform a pulmonary vein ablation for atrial fibrillation
2005
World’s first robotic-assisted left atrial appendage ligation to reduce the chance of clot formation and stroke in high risk patients with atrial fibrillation is performed at LHSC
Canada’s first minimally invasive robotic-assisted double bypass surgery is performed at LHSC
In an apparent world first, a robotic-assisted partial cystectomy is performed using the da Vinci robot
Canada’s first robotic-assisted multi vessel small thorocotomy is performed at LHSC
2004
LHSC’s Image-Guided surgery team performed the world’s first image-guided robotic-assisted thoracoscopic resection of a lung cancer using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm and a 3-dimensional ultrasound probe
Esophageal Surgery team performed Canada’s first robotic-assisted laparoscopic transhiatal esophagectomy for esophageal cancer using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm (2004/May/31).
Esophageal Surgery team performed Canada’s first robotic-assisted transthoracic endoscopic esophagectomy for esophageal cancer using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm (2004/September/27).
In a Canadian first in research for CSTAR (Canadian Surgical Technologies & Advanced Robotics), the four-armed da Vinci robot was used throughout a surgery to complete a radical prostatectomy
A CSTAR team is the first in North America to complete two different procedures to clear blocked arteries, minimally invasive robotic-assisted heart bypass surgery and angioplasty with stenting, at the same time in the operating room
In a North American first, an interdisciplinary team successfully removes a renal artery aneurysm with the help of a da Vinci surgical robot
A small, multi-channel recording and stimulating device that aids in deep brain stimulation is developed at LHSC
2003
Urologists at LHSC are the first in Canada to use the three-armed ZEUS robot to correct a blockage in the ureter of the kidney
Results of an international study show that the common high blood pressure drug ramipril can prevent heart failure in high risk cardiovascular patients
LHSC is the first in Canada and one of three in the world to use revolutionary digital technology to produce detailed fluoroscopic images for diagnostic and interventional procedures
LHSC surgeons are the first in Canada to use a four-armed da Vinci robot to complete a single coronary artery bypass graft
2003 – LHSC’s Pulmonary surgery performed Canada’s first robotic-assisted lobectomy for lung cancer using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm (2003/January/17).
2002
An LHSC study determines that patients with congestive heart failure have an improved quality of life with a new pacemaker that works on both sides of the heart
LHSC cardiologists complete a left atrial appendage occlusion, a new procedure for stroke prevention that closes the area of the heart where the majority of blood clots form
Neurosurgeons at LHSC complete the first artificial cervical disc replacement in North America
LRCC is one of two sites in Canada and one of three in the world to have a tomotherapy unit, the newest radiation treatment technology
2001
LHSC’s Pulmonary surgery team performed the world’s first robotic-assisted lung volume reduction using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm
LHSC’s Pulmonary surgery team performed Canada’s first robotic-assisted resection of a lung cancer using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm
LHSC’s Pulmonary surgery team performed Canada’s first robotic-assisted apical bullectomy for a pneumothorax using Computer Motion’s AESOP® robotic arm
Using Socrates robotic technology, LHSC conducts the world’s first robotic-assisted surgery via telementoring, in which one surgeon assisted and mentored another at a remote site and both manipulated robotic arms inside the patient in the operating room
LHSC researchers are the first in the world to find strong evidence to support that surgery, not medicine, is the key to improved quality of life for temporal lobe epilepsy
The first artificial disc replacement in Canada is completed at LHSC
2000
LHSC’s transplant team performs the first adult-to-adult living donor partial-liver transplant in Canada
LHSC’s surgical team performs the first minimally invasive robotic-assisted mitral valve heart surgery in Canada
1999
LHSC’s surgical team successfully completes the world’s first closed-chest, robotic-assisted beating heart coronary artery bypass graft
1998
An LHSC team is the first in Canada to perform voice-activated robotic-assisted minimally invasive cardiac bypass surgery
1997
LHSC’s Multi-Organ Transplant team transplants a liver, bowel, stomach, and pancreas into a five-month-old infant, the world’s youngest recipient of a multi-organ transplant
An LHSC nephrologist performs a world-first in plasma exchange treatment and is credited with saving the life of a man with a severe case of food poisoning
LHSC cardiac surgeons are the first in Canada to perform a revolutionary method of video-assisted minimally invasive heart surgery
1996
A team of researchers accomplishes a world-first when they develop a miniature recording device that monitors the heartbeat during fainting spells
1994
The world’s first 3D ultrasound-guided cryosurgery is performed at University Hospital
1993
Victoria and University hospitals collaborate on Canada’s first living-related paediatric liver transplant
1991
A study begins at University Hospital on the safety and efficacy of using detachable platinum coils to treat brain aneurysms
1990
LRCC is the first in Canada to use the radioactive source Ytterbium for treatment
1989
The first cardiac stent insertion in Canada is performed at Victoria Hospital
The world’s first invasive inner ear surgery for vertigo in normal hearing ears is conducted at University Hospital
1988
The world’s first successful liver-small bowel transplant is performed at University Hospital
The London Regional Cancer Centre (now LRCP) is the first Canadian site to treat malignant melanoma and kidney disease patients with Interleukin-2
1987
The world’s first pacemaker cardioverter defibrillator (PCD) is implanted at University Hospital
1985
A University Hospital team announces success in a trial using cyclosporine to arrest the progress of Type 1 diabetes
1983
University Hospital is the first in Canada to perform a heart-lung transplant
1981
University Hospital performs the world’s first heart operation to correct life threatening right ventricular dysplasia
1972
Operations begin on cerebral aneurysms using a technique that establishes University Hospital’s worldwide reputation
1958
Dr. Charles Drake pioneers a surgical procedure for aneurysms at the base of the brain, called basilar aneurysms
1956
The London Clinic of the Ontario Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation at Victoria Hospital (now the London Regional Cancer Program [LRCP]) and The University of Western Ontario discover the chemotherapy drugs vinca alkaloids
1951
The first cobalt bomb in the world is used to deliver radiation therapy to cancer patients at Victoria Hospital
1948
The first artificial kidney machine in Canada is developed at Victoria Hospital
Physicians at Victoria Hospital are the first to recognize sexual dimorphism in human cells, leading to new knowledge of the relationship between sex chromosome abnormalities and human disease
July 23, 2009 at 8:25 am
S&S — Thanks for the link to the article at HuffPo. It’s quite astounding how Holmes could make such a blatant lie about her condition. I wonder how much she was compensated by the Astroturf group she’s speaking on behalf of these days… Perhaps that covered some or all of the $97,000 she had to fork over to the Mayo Clinic for treatment of her non-life-threatening “brain tumor.”
By the way, speaking of health company profits, check this out.
July 23, 2009 at 8:25 am
teh stupid must be burning right now.
July 23, 2009 at 8:26 am
Canada fought in World War 1 and World War 2.
More warrior’s fought and died in World War 1 and 2 then in any other conflicts combined.
So, if that doesn’t make us a warrior nation, it surely don’t make us a “peacekeeping” nation.
If you fought more wars for more time than you have on peacekeeping than you have to come to the conclusion we are a “warrior nation”.
You might not like the military and what it stands for, but the garbage you spew here is proof that it was worth it for all of us.
So even though our military hates being called “peacekeepers”, you can go right ahead and keep disrespecting them.
All the best.
July 23, 2009 at 8:27 am
Red, I found it interesting that of all the Canadian periodicals, Macleans is not tackling the story with much enthusiasm. I suspect it has something to do with Coyne being on the board of the group bankrolling the maroon.
July 23, 2009 at 8:29 am
So when I was a kid I got into a few dustups. Probably (being a kid) far more than I have resolved. I guess I am a warrior now. Watch out John, I might slam your blubbery carcass to the canvas like this.
July 23, 2009 at 8:30 am
Rural Sandi, great post, but too bad most items on the list are repeat or different methods to the same surgery.
If you’re trying to compare USA medical brekthroughs with Canadian breakthroughs, you would be a huge underdog.
Probably about 200-1.
I would bet that for every Canadian invention in history there has been 50 American ones.
Canada, like Iggy has said, has slept through history.
July 23, 2009 at 8:37 am
John – don’t go away angry – just go away. You’re trying to yank strings here.
You’re becoming a total bore and want to be combative just for the sake of it.
Get off welfare – get a job. How can you afford a computer and internet on welfare?
July 23, 2009 at 8:39 am
“You might not like the military and what it stands for, but the garbage you spew here is proof that it was worth it for all of us.
So even though our military hates being called “peacekeepers”, you can go right ahead and keep disrespecting them.”
Apparently its still 2003 in John’s world. I don’t dislike the military but I do believe that they are eligible for discussion and criticism. I don’t believe that criticizing any end of the government is a bad thing as often it requires analysis and criticism to improve things. Blind following of rules doesnt allow that.
It’s a weak argument though John, I’m not the Dixie Chicks and its 2009 so that angle is a bit, well, stale.
But go ahead John, you’re like the fish that keeps biting the hook; thick and dull witted.
July 23, 2009 at 8:53 am
It’s no wonder the Liberal party of Canada consists of nothing more than special interests.
You all know what I mean.
July 23, 2009 at 8:54 am
Someone’s been locked in his trailer too long.
July 23, 2009 at 8:55 am
on a different topic this:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/670689
should provide some interesting conversation
July 23, 2009 at 9:07 am
The only way wingnuts should be allowed to persist in discussions with normal people is for them to be obliged to answer a question in a way that the rest of us can judge is honest. For example, every wingnut who shows up here should be only be allowed to continue only if they answer the following:
1. How did you come across this post?
2. Do you sock-puppet under any other pseudonym?
Refusal to answer indicates evasiveness. Lying indicates bad faith.
Either that, or out them, go to their homes and hold their heads under water until the bubbles stop.
Just kidding. Maybe.
July 23, 2009 at 9:10 am
I always enjoy a session of CWTF vs. random wingnut.
July 23, 2009 at 9:42 am
I always enjoy a session of CWTF vs. random wingnut.
I had my fill of arguing with random wingnuts a few years ago, when I argued with them extensively. In my defense though, I came to online discussions very late in the game, despite having been on the Internet since 1988. I was forced to around the Iraq Invasion, when I determined that the mediocrity/immorality of mainstream journalism had reached a critically dangerous point. For a period of time, I just didn’t believe there were so many people (adults, with educations) *that* cretinous and dishonest actually existed (and were just playing around) or alternately, believed they were actually teachable. I know better now.
It’s all just gotten worse since then (especially now that the mainstream media is going bankrupt), so now, all I’m doing is witnessing the train wreck and jumping in, once in a while, if I have the energy.
There is no hope for the mainstream media. It all needs to go to make way for the people who understand the necessity of an informed citizenry to democracy if we intend to preserve it. I’m starting to have my doubts about whether that’s even worthwhile anymore.
July 23, 2009 at 9:51 am
Interesting points Ti-Guy. It’s going to be a hard corner to turn though considering we’ve elected politicians who believe government is flawed for so long. Plus an informed citizenry probably would mean the Reformatories being pitched out to the wilderness where they belong. Im not holding my breath though.
July 23, 2009 at 10:06 am
Im not holding my breath though.
I wouldn’t. Beyond a few glimmers of hope now and then (such as when one of the members of our awful clique of journalists takes another to task for the crap he or she has spewed), I firmly believe it’s going to get much worse before it gets any better.
I do blame past Liberal government’s unwillingness to allow the CBC to counter the private media as aggressively as it’s attacked public media (and public institutions, generally). Now, it’s as trivial as the private media, for the most part.
July 23, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Need an MRI? Thank the American doctor that invented it.
IN SCOTLAND YOU PRAT!!
And you’re using revenue as an example of importance? REVENUE? Drug cartels make lots of money… clearly a sign that they are important and are worthy of our respect.
“Ti-Guy, I think someone thinks you are Ignatieff.” Or is so stupid to as to think that everyone to the left of him (which would be most of Canada) is a LPC supporter.
Basically John’s whole argument is that Canada sucks and the US rulez!!!
What he’s basically done is fall into a very nice false dichotomy, to whit: he’s assuming that if one is critical of the US system then one is automatically utterly uncritical of the Canadian one.
His examples are worth a good chuckle though: Cuba and Vietnam?
I don’t know bugger all about Vietnam’s system but let’s look at Cuba, Canada and the US.
Two really nice measures of healthcare, of over all health of a population, are life expectancy and infant mortality.
Horrible Cuba? The average life expectancy is 75.08, disgusting Canada (where we do nothing and just suck at the US teat) is at 80.34. The glorious United States of America (where everything is wonderful and amazing and gold leafed)? 78.06.
Hmm I’m confused.
Infant mortality then (which is often used as a yard stick to look at both development and whether a country is a failed state or not): The Dictatorial, Freedom™ Challenged Horror That is Cuba? 5.82 deaths per 1000 births. Pathetic Canada? 5.04… BUT WAIT! Surely the Wondrous And Amazing United States of Coolness And America (with her gloriously profitable med/bio sector) has a Super Amazingly Low rate of infant mortality? 6.26? Higher than Cuba and Canada you say? Clearly my source for this is some commie, leftist, LPC run “think tank” (scare quotes to show that lefties can’t actually think *snicker*). Yes, you caught me, I’m quoting from that well known lefty organization the CIA.
Hey how about mortality with cancer? Let’s look at breast cancer k? (a subject near and dear to me: complications of this disease too my mom in 2005 – after 21 years of fighting it off, with no help from the US healthcare system at all) I got these stats from here by the way.
So, in the reporting years (93, 94, 95) the death rate from breast cancer per 100,000 women was 20.9 in Canada and 20.7 in the US. So they beat us. By .2. WOO!
I didn’t find breast cancer survival or mortality rates for Cuba, but I did find this…
Cuba’s first? Canada second? The USA third? COMMUNIST PLOT!!
Thank you for your time.
That is all.
July 23, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Cameron — The wingnuts NEVER let facts get in the way of their arguments. The plain fact of the matter is that US style healthcare costs more (approx. $6,500 per family) with outcomes that don’t compare favorably to other industrialized countries (not to mention insignificant despotic backwaters like Cuba, etc.).
July 23, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I know.. but I just figure if I wrap facts around a sledge hammer and hit them hard enough mb some of them will get it.
I doubt it, but who knows.
July 23, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Oh, and please understand that I’m not saying that the system we have is perfect, but that it’s not the abomination that some people are saying it is..
July 23, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Exactly.
July 24, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Oh, someone else did another comparison:
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/23404.html