Oh, the irony…
It seems our friend Canadian Cynic has challenged those of us bloggers that have elected to subscribe to the Liblogs aggregator to make a rather uncomfortable, Procrustean choice:
Apparently, if you’re a member of Liblogs, you have a right to Jason Cherniak’s opinion. So I’m going to make this really simple: Resolve this, or go bye-bye from the CC HQ blogroll.
Look, I don’t happen to agree with Jason on many of his positions and quite likely the reverse is true — we have many differences of opinion about various matters and have parted ways over numerous policy/leadership issues. In my view, this has always been the good thing about Liblogs and the LPC in general. It’s the proverbial “big tent” as they say and as a somewhat aimless and disenfranchised “Red Tory” I’ve always been happy to temporarily camp out there… pissing in an outward, rather than inward direction as the Lincoln-era analogy goes.
So here’s the bottom line: It’s Jason’s pop-stand and he’s fully within his prerogative to kick me off Liblogs at any time if what I write is ideologically disagreeable or otherwise objectionable to him — likewise, Canadian Cynic can punt me from his blogroll if it serves to prove some “point” that he wants to make. It’s all a bit pissy and small-minded if you ask me, but whatever…
I’m something of a free-speech absolutist so will just resolutely continue to fart along on that path. Other folks can use their supposed influence in the Blogosphere as they see fit to do so.
74 Comments
January 10, 2009 at 7:04 pm
I agree with everything you say there, RT.
January 10, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Red, did you not complain at some point to be removed from Liblogs?
January 10, 2009 at 7:08 pm
[...] all I’ll say to the matter of Canadian Cynic’s challenge, just read what Red Tory published, and you’ve more or less got my [...]
January 10, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Please delete me from your blogroll at your earliest possible convenience.
Ring a bell?
As for Cherniak, he’s written:
It is important to note that the only “editing” is to ensure that Libloggers are not either members of other political party blog lists or clearly misusing the list to mislead readers. There is no guarantee that Libloggers are actually Liberals and there is no editing of their comments.
(thanks knb)
In my view, this has always been the good thing about Liblogs and the LPC in general. It’s the proverbial “big tent” as they say and as a somewhat aimless and disenfranchised “Red Tory” I’ve always been happy to temporarily camp out there
except that Cherniak decided to remove those that do not agree with his pro-Israel stance.
I though hypocrites were the speciality of the Blogging Tories…
January 10, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Heh, are you starting a lobbying effort of Liberal bloggers, CWTF?
January 10, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Heh, are you starting a lobbying effort of Liberal bloggers, CWTF?
Yes
January 10, 2009 at 7:35 pm
I don’t agree with what Cherniak’s doing, but I can understand it (I’m a bear with regards to the country my parents immigrated from). Still, he should have asked someone else to moderate the blogroll because of this natural bias. His mistake is not stepping away.
January 10, 2009 at 7:35 pm
It’s certainly not my battle but I definitely think that Cherniak is behaving much like the editorial management of the National Post, where any opinion that doesn’t reflect their own gets edited or scrubbed. Doesn’t say much for free speech and diversity of opinion.
January 10, 2009 at 7:50 pm
CC removed me from his blogroll awhile back in another one of his challenges, when he warned anyone who linked to Prairie Wrangler would be deleted, because PW linked to someone who CC disagreed with. It was all rather Kevin Baconish. Anyway, I enjoy CC’s blog and he’s free to do as he wishes, but I’m not inclined to respond to such tactics.
On Liblogs, perhaps as one of the five admins I can add a little insight. No one has been removed from the roll because of their opinions on Gaza, or disagreement with Liberal policy. A quick scan of the posts over the past week would seem to indicate that if it was our intent to censor such opinion, the amount of negative opinion on there would mean we were doing a really crap-ass job of it. 3/5 admins need to be in favour before someone is dismissed and we very much err on the side of liberal free speech.
No one has been removed because of their opinion on Gaza, or any other topic. Two bloggers have left the roll recently.
Mound asked to be removed in a post on their own blog. There was no decision made to remove Mound because of anything they wrote, we were merely honouring Mound’s request. Given that Mound later claimed to have been unwillingly removed, we asked Mound to clarify: do you want off, or not? Mound declined to clarify. So that’s that.
Le Daro was not removed because of their opinion on any issue. One of the few lines we’ve drawn on Liblogs is libel. Le Daro made several statements that we felt raised a question of libel, and that is the only reason why Le Daro was removed.
Concerns about potential libel are one of the rare times we’ll consider removing a blogger from the roll; I know you remember a similar incident a few months back Red. We have been consistent on this issue over the past year, and I don’t think this is an unreasonable line to draw.
January 10, 2009 at 8:00 pm
BCer in Toronto thank you for the plausible deniability…
The accusations go further than that and it’s rather disingenuous of you.
I think many have objected to Cherniak using the top portion of Liblogs has his personal post-it note and pushing his pro-Israeli position.
He did/does have a blog and could have used that…
Care to point out where you think LeDaro bothered on Libel? He has not removed anything from his blog, so please elucidate us…
January 10, 2009 at 8:04 pm
The accusations go further than that and it’s rather disingenuous of you.
If you have specifics I’d be happy to try to address them and disappoint you again.
I think many have objected to Cherniak using the top portion of Liblogs has his personal post-it note and pushing his pro-Israeli position.
I just responded to you on this over at KNB, so I hope Red will forgive me if I reproduce that here.
On the admin notes, the first one was merely an appeal for calm to all. The second was inappropriate, was his personal view and not that of Liblogs, and it was removed. I disagreed with his decision to post that note, and told him so. It won’t happen again. In the future, such notes will need 3/5 admin approval.
Care to point out where you think LeDaro bothered on Libel? He has not removed anything from his blog, so please elucidate us…
He is free as a blog publisher to make his own decisions on the risk he is comfortable running in such areas. But this is the post that concerned the admins:
http://ledaro.blogspot.com/2009/01/jason-cherniak-and-liblogs.html
January 10, 2009 at 8:18 pm
“Kevin Baconish”
Damn that is good.
Anyway, I’ve been watching these disruptions on Liblogs for awhile with some concern. Frankly, I use bloglines to read any blogs I like, so I don’t understand the desperate need for an aggregator, but if the Tories have one, then we need one, and you all need to find a way to get along.
I know you have this admin committee, but perhaps it might be a good idea if all of the Libloggers got together, had a meeting, even in cyberspace, and voted on some of this. Obviously, some personalities are getting in the way of good management functioning.
Isn’t there an annual meeting coming up? Don’t you all have an opportunity to deal with this?
And as for contacting people, please tell me that someone, somewhere, has a complete list of contact emails and phone numbers for each and every Liblogger? And all the Libloggers have ways of reaching all the admins? I keep reading over and over again about these contact issues. You’d think it was the 20th century….
January 10, 2009 at 8:25 pm
On the admin notes, the first one was merely an appeal for calm to all.
And a push of Iggy the Bloody position on Gaza…
The second was inappropriate, was his personal view and not that of Liblogs, and it was removed.
But it said it was the OFFICIAL position of the Liblogs…
So in a to an answer to a post where Cherniak plastered “his personal view and not that of Liblogs” as the official position of the Liblogs and angered many Liberal bloggers for his boneheadness and by your own admission will not happen again, you are think LeDaro is Libel?
Cherniak misrepresented the Liblogs, alienated Liberals, angered some to the point of leaving various Liberal groups (James Curran for example) and the admins are worried about a post that states that Jason Cherniak and Liblogs has done damage to the Liberal party, liblogs for what Jason posted…- you call that Libel?
None of this would have happened if Jason Cherniak had not shoved his pro-Israel propaganda on top of the Liblogs….
He misrepresented the Liblogs.
The only advice I suggest is that Jason Cherniak be removed as an administrator….
January 10, 2009 at 8:28 pm
The only advice I suggest is that Jason Cherniak be removed as an administrator….
That would be a good idea. He’s become a liability.
January 10, 2009 at 8:29 pm
CWTF, Jason owns the domain name and pays for the domain. This isn’t some corporation where shareholders can remove the chairman of the board. His advisory panel is no different then the moderators of Progressive Bloggers – they are there to help the administrator, and to give advise, but all final decisions rest with the owner and administrator of the site.
January 10, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Anyway, I’ve been watching these disruptions on Liblogs for awhile with some concern. Frankly, I use bloglines to read any blogs I like, so I don’t understand the desperate need for an aggregator, but if the Tories have one, then we need one, and you all need to find a way to get along.
That’s my hope too.
I wonder — do they have this much drama on the Blogging Tories?
January 10, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Time for someone to create The Blogging Grits….
January 10, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m not seeing anything in LeDaro’s post that isn’t defensible as either truth or opinion. Every statement of fact he made is, as far as I can tell, fact. His opinions were just mean. Being mean isn’t libel.
Anyway, I don’t see how any of this is of any concern to CC, but then neither is what he does with his blogroll any concern of mine. So does this mean I’ll be booted off CC’s blogroll for not removing Libloggers from my blogroll who don’t… wait… sorry, now I’ve lost track.
January 10, 2009 at 8:47 pm
This isn’t some corporation where shareholders can remove the chairman of the board.
This is a a non-profit corporation. Unofficially, Liblogs represents Liberals bloggers. Various bloggers were courted by candidates during the leadership and some even treated as “media”.
We often accuse the Blogging Tories of being the propaganda arm of Harper. Liberals once boasted that liblogs were not the same – given Cherniak actions of late, it seems that Liberals are similar to them. Jeff seems to be trying to clear a few things…
January 10, 2009 at 8:52 pm
That’s my hope too.
Just wanted to add that I hope people “get along” within reason. No one expects everyone to hold hands and sing kumbaya. What’s been happening lately has been depressing.
Time for someone to create The Blogging Grits….
Ha! I’ve seen this a couple of times on the internet. A group gets to the point when it divides. Hopefully, if this happens, there won’t be people snipping at the other side. I hate the narcissism of small differences.
January 10, 2009 at 9:03 pm
“but perhaps it might be a good idea if all of the Libloggers got together, had a meeting, even in cyberspace, and voted on some of this.”
I vote for “anonymous”, and let David keep the sucker running. Then if people want to put their names up as admins, let’s have a vote. I mean all this belly aching from every Liberal under the sun about the “grassroots”, and we have an aggregator that set’s up like 19th century Russia. Maybe somebody sets something else up and then we have more drama, or maybe if we think of what’s best, we get this right once and for all.
Ask yourself, what would Bob Rae do? Think about it.
January 10, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Well, a domain name and server space is dead cheap to pay for. It’s not exactly a zillion dollars people. I think I just paid a bill for a domain for a business and it was umm, maybe $90 for the year? Hosting is maybe $20/month, unless you guys take up space on some fancy expensive one. You are telling me that if each liblogger was asked for $5 that you couldn’t each chip in and buy him out?
Then put up a PayPal button and ask for contributions like wikipedia just did? You’d be self-sustaining in no time I bet.
Elect a new group every year, board of directors, president, etc….and welcome to the 21st century.
Off to bed, but I hope you guys do figure this one out. Take care.
January 10, 2009 at 9:37 pm
You’re presuming that the Liblogs domain and brand name is only worth the minimum amount to Jason. I’d bet he’d ask a lot more for any buyout of the rights to the domain name and the hosting.
You’re also presuming he wants to sell it.
As Mike alluded to earlier.. if anyone wants to start their own aggregate because they aren’t satisfied with how Liblogs is operated , they’re free to do so.
January 10, 2009 at 9:44 pm
” if anyone wants to start their own aggregate because they aren’t satisfied with how Liblogs is operated , they’re free to do so.”
And, it we take self interest out of the equation, that is exactly what everyone should try and avoid. I just love the idea of online “camps”, it’s so Liberal afterall.
January 10, 2009 at 9:45 pm
This is all so utterly ridiculous that it hardly warrants an entire blog post, does it?
The anti-Semites who are now leaving Liblogs (and the Liberal Party?) have completely discredited themselves by spreading lies (as LeDaro does now, who keeps lying about MoS having been forced off Liblogs when it was MoS himself who had demanded to be taken off the blogroll).
As for CC’s tactics, who in their right mind wants to be on his blogroll anyway? His is not a quality blog, but just rants filled with four-letter words. A three-year-old can produce that level of writing.
January 10, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Werner, don’t be stupid. Disagreeing with the current nonsense in Gaza hardly makes one anti-Semitic. Those who are being kicked off are being booted because of their criticism of Israel not anti-Semitism. I read MoS entry and I agree with it. Cherniak made an incredible stink misrepresenting what he said. He does that a lot when it comes to smearing people with the anti-semitism label
Just like he did in the past that ended in an NDP MPP getting elected.
I might add, Werner, that calling people anti-Semites with out proof is actionable.
January 10, 2009 at 11:42 pm
I think Liblogs has served its purpose. We Liberals need to rethink how we organize on the web on a grassroots level.
Not a top down web strategy, not something run by a party official, not something based on a leadership candidate/faction. An actual, independent voice of the centre-left.
January 11, 2009 at 12:21 am
Al: Any Netroots cannot truly be functional if it’s only echoing the party line. That’s why American conservative blogs are so dismal compared to their liberal counterparts; whereas the latter are a source of vibrant discussion and debate, the former just toe the party line, whether in government or in opposition, and become quickly annoying due to their sameness.
Liblogs is just a big aggregator. It’s Jason’s Google NewsFeed, nothing more. If you want to start a real, independent, progressive group blog, then do it. (They’ve certainly been successful elsewhere.) But I’d suggest doing it not with the intent of promulgating the party line, but bringing the grassroots of the Liberal party to the mainstream.
Because right now, from what I’ve seen, said grassroots doesn’t even get to choose their leader anymore. Much less speak truth to him.
January 11, 2009 at 1:11 am
“This is all so utterly ridiculous that it hardly warrants an entire blog post, does it?”
nice preface, zuzu.
KEvron
January 11, 2009 at 1:31 am
Jeff — Thanks for the clarification/explanation. I suspected as much.
MoS left a comment here saying he’d been kicked off, but when I tried to figure out what had gone down, he was evidently unwilling to expand on it. The impression I got from remarks he’d made elsewhere seemed to indicate that he wanted to be “removed” rather than a case of being forcibly ejected over an irreconcilable difference of opinion.
Unfortunate.
January 11, 2009 at 2:00 am
CWTF — I believe the incident you’re referring to was in regards to an intractable argument with another blogger who pretended to be a “liberal” but vehemently supported the McCain-Palin ticket for some unfathomable reason, repeatedly posted nasty, sniping comments under different names on my blog, and then engaged in anonymous, sock-puppeting on his own (now defunct) blog to personally smear me and my family with a bunch of malicious lies.
Basically, a “him or me” dispute — different kettle of fish there. His ISP wouldn’t do anything about it and given that he was an anonymous coward, there wasn’t much I could do from my end, so I asked the folks running Liblogs to make a decision.
The whole thing was completely ridiculous because all he had to do was simply remove an “Anonymous” comment than contained the clearly libelous material and the entire matter would have been settled. However, because I’d said some mean, snarky things about him in the past, he played dumb and refused to do so.
Instead, he eventually imploded his whole blog and now appears here periodically as a troll under different stupid names to either: A) accuse me of being an asshole (guilty — duh!); B) repeat the same malicious fabrications and libelous rubbish about my wife and kids he’d anonymously made on his own (defunct) blog; and/or C) invent highly imaginative, stories about himself and call me out for a fist-fight or something.
January 11, 2009 at 3:38 am
I’ve stayed out of it. I admit I have no expertise on the Middle East and the news coming out of there is so limited and contradictory.
I’m finding certain bloggers are getting angry, combative and personal in their attacks rather than debate the issue like adults.
January 11, 2009 at 3:45 am
Sharonapple wrote:
“Time for someone to create The Blogging Grits….”
Ha! I’ve seen this a couple of times on the internet. A group gets to the point when it divides. Hopefully, if this happens, there won’t be people snipping at the other side. I hate the narcissism of small differences.
Agree with you completyely on that.
RT,
I remember that nasty, rather long, incident with lib4ever. What bothered me as well was the amt. of time it took for that situation to be resolved. Cherniak also thought there was nothing wrong with lib4ever remaining on Liblogs & saying what he did. Eventually other admins stepped in, as I recall & finally resolved it by removing him.
This begs the question, even though the situation is different from the present ones that ocurred, why was the removal of MoS & LeDaro practically instant & the other one not? This really bothers me. It’s almost as though you had to fight tooth & nail for justice to prevail.
Jeff,
Thankyou for your explanations.
January 11, 2009 at 5:45 am
This begs the question, even though the situation is different from the present ones that ocurred, why was the removal of MoS & LeDaro practically instant & the other one not? This really bothers me.
Coupled with the pro-Israel stance of Jason and Jeff, do you really have to ask?
January 11, 2009 at 5:53 am
This is what I love about liblogs. There is rarely a day that goes by where you won’t find a good ol’ catfight over someone’s blogroll or other such ‘he said, she said’ nonsense. It’s like a reality show with a bunch of nerdy political divas. Maybe C-PAC should pick it up as a series.
January 11, 2009 at 5:58 am
interesting thread. well, except for werner. seems to me that cc has good intentions that get filtered through his default abattoir setting. for the record, i don’t agree with his demand in this case. that said, if i were a liberal, i would be mightily upset with little prince jason and the national party just now. autocratic, blanket statements of policy and threats of censorship don’t strike me as either liberal or freedom of speech. for those that intend to soldier on with liblogs, you’re stuck with cherniak, not an association i would relish but your call.
as a general note of opinion, aggregators tend to suck. and the petty business of blogroll purging also sucks. i have extensive bookmarks that serve me well and nobody can vote themselves to the top of my daily read. in the mean time, liberals have a more troubling issue than a blog agg to deal with and that is the national policy position as stated by the count as regards sanctioning israeli bloodshed. iggy’s pro-slaughter stance is driving voters of convenience away from the liberals. anyone but harper or iggy.
January 11, 2009 at 6:18 am
Reg,
I rarely see “catfight’s”, as you call them, on Liblogs. Get a life.
January 11, 2009 at 6:28 am
ABCer, what the hell are you talking about? LeDaro wasn’t libellous at all. Outspoken yes, libellous no.
Libel would be like if someone wrote, “Jason Cherniak chokes midgets in the ally.” That statement would be (1) untrue; (2) damaging to Cherniak’s reputation (assuming he has any reputation to start with).
LeDaro did nothing of that kind. Read a law book ABCer… or maybe you’re just trying to rationalized Cherniak’s (mis)behaviour to yourself.
P.S. If you want to go into libel, Cherniak himself has been guilty of that several times — for instance when he alleged that Olivia Chow stacked the votes in her riding… maybe he should be removed from Liblogs.
January 11, 2009 at 6:57 am
that said, if i were a liberal, i would be mightily upset with little prince jason and the national party just now. autocratic, blanket statements of policy and threats of censorship don’t strike me as either liberal or freedom of speech.
King Iggy the Bloody and his coterie of Israeli sycophants… Can Liberals have a mulligan and re-instate Paul Martin – at least he’s financially adept…
January 11, 2009 at 7:02 am
On the “libel” point. I, too, don’t think LeDaro’s post was libelous. I’m sure that was a talking point of Cherniak’s as he is a lawyer & “to be believed”.
Just sayin’.
January 11, 2009 at 7:08 am
Coming back to say that none of this seems to have been resolved overnight, and I hope that some creative solution appears.
I just think that when an individual becomes the flashpoint of the argument, it becomes difficult, if not impossible to see past that and deal with the real issues. I’ve seen this over and over again in organizations. (Hint: think every election ever lost–when people argue over the leader and infight, they lose because they don’t keep their eyes on the prize.)
To reply to Scott, no maybe he won’t sell the name for cheap, maybe he wants to keep it, but on the other hand, maybe he wants rid of the whole mess. I thought that was why he stopped blogging–because it was interfering with work. Well, isn’t it worth asking if he just wants to move on completely? His decision, of course, by who would want this if they didn’t have to do it?
(And I thought that at some point, when it was incorporated as a non-profit, ownership of the name was transferred to the corporation so that Jason would not be sued personally if anything went wrong, but instead, the corporation would be sued. He may be paying the bills as majority shareholder, but that’s another issue. Can anyone clarify?)
January 11, 2009 at 7:37 am
Reg — There is rarely a day that goes by where you won’t find a good ol’ catfight over someone’s blogroll…
Make up complete bullshit much?
I have no idea why such an inordinate number of so-called “conservatives” are such habitual and flagrant LIARS.
January 11, 2009 at 7:52 am
LeDaro was just being outspoken for the most part, but it’s possible that libel comes into play where the accusation is made that MOS was taken off of Liblogs because Cherniak disagreed with the position MOS took on the situation in the Gaza strip. From BCer’s post — that’s not what happened. In Canada, to say that this isn’t libel, LeDaro would have to prove his original statement was true. (Or at least that the impression I get from this FAQ on libel.)
January 11, 2009 at 8:19 am
I have no idea why such an inordinate number of so-called “conservatives” are such habitual and flagrant LIARS.
Hey, some of them are just not members of the factinistas. The truth’s in the gut.
“Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, “I did look it up, and that’s not true.” That’s ’cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that’s how our nervous system works. ”
Stephen Colbert said that. My gut tells me he’s not lying.
January 11, 2009 at 8:37 am
RT:
I do not read CC but he sounds like a bit of a jerk in this case.
Note to Jason:
You accomplished a great thing, starting Liblogs. At this point, the site has grown and wants to morph into an on-line big tent (as RT noted) and has literally out-grown you.
Why did you give up blogging? I believe you watched a few other bloggers and former bloggers get trashed in the last election for some obscure posts in their past. Your political ambitions (quite honorable btw) motivated you to become more cautious. Your blogging and leadership in starting Liblogs got you noticed beyond Richmond Hill and the stuffy back rooms of the riding presidents meetings but now you are concerned that they may become a potential liability.
Your current drift into censorship (and inability to stay silent and not abuse your soapbox, even though you “gave up blogging”) is motivated by more of the same ambition, and gets compounded by your rather narrow-minded ethnocentric view of the cluster-f*ck at the east end of the Mediterranean.
So please – give up Liblogs now and let more even-minded folks take over. A properly moderated site of sometimes dissenting views will only strengthen the Liberal party big-tent in the long run and enhance your reputation as the entrepreneurial young turk that started it all.
When the rabid hoards attack you can quite rightly point to others to deal with the controversy.
January 11, 2009 at 8:49 am
Aurelia,
Isn’t there an annual meeting coming up? Don’t you all have an opportunity to deal with this?
It’s not all as formal as that. Jason created Liblogs, bought and pays for the domain, etc. He created a not for profit to run it, he is the sole “shareholder”. The idea was to create an aggregate for Liberal bloggers, similar to what Blogging Tories was doing. Recognizing that it would be better were he not the sole arbiter of questions such as who can join or when and if people should be removed, he decided to create an informal advisory board. The members were appointed by him, as the sole shareholder. He has voluntarily devolved a lot of decision-making to this board, with a majority vote required to reject a membership application, remove a blogger, etc.
How much more formal do we want to get beyond that? I don’t know. I don’t think it would be beneficial or necessary. My own view is that Liblogs is merely a blog aggregate of bloggers generally supportive or/sympathetic to the Liberal cause, not a grand vehicle to advance the Liberal agenda. My colleagues may or may not all share that view. My feeling is that as long as you’re not actively campaigning to defeat the LP, taking issue with party policy and action is perfectly fine, and healthy — I’ve done so myself. So as long as you’re not campaigning to defeat the party (which would raise the question why you’d want to be on a Liberal blogroll in the first place) and as long as you’re not running afoul of libel law, hate law, etc., then go to town.
We are as a board currently discussing a draft set of basic principles to put this on paper so to speak, and hope to have it ready for discussion soon.
And as for contacting people, please tell me that someone, somewhere, has a complete list of contact emails and phone numbers for each and every Liblogger?
When a blogger joins there was a field in the form for an e-mail, but it wasn’t mandatory. And over the years some addresses become invalid. Frankly, while we make every effort to contact a blogger when an issue arises, this has been a problem in the past. Part of the principles will include a requirement to provide Liblogs with a valid e-mail address.
Penlan,
This begs the question, even though the situation is different from the present ones that ocurred, why was the removal of MoS & LeDaro practically instant & the other one not? This really bothers me. It’s almost as though you had to fight tooth & nail for justice to prevail.
MoS asked to be removed, so it’s a different situation. LeDaro and Liberal4evr differed in that LeDaro was the author of the concerning statements, while with Liberal4evr it was a series of anonymous comments on the blog. We wanted to give them a chance to remove the comments, they declined. It also took some time for the board members to be polled on the issue. This past week, unsurprisingly, we’ve been in contact a lot more often and so were able to make a decision more quickly.
CWTF,
Coupled with the pro-Israel stance of Jason and Jeff, do you really have to ask?
Interesting how you go ape over others simplifying people’s views as pro or anti, yet you have no trouble doing the same with those whose views don’t fall exactly in line with yours.
As I’ve stated, in short, my view is that Israel has the right to defend itself from rocket attacks, but I don’t see how this military campaign will meet their strategic goals. I support a cease fire, but it needs to be a cease fire that both a) secures the security of Israel, and b) addresses both the safety and humanitarian concerns of the people of Gaza. A cease fire that merely returns to the status quo, rockets raining in Israel and a people impoverished and imprisoned in Gaza, will solve nothing.I suspect an international role will be needed.
That’s my position. If you want to classify that as pro-Israel, fine.
Libel???,
ABCer, what the hell are you talking about? LeDaro wasn’t libellous at all. Outspoken yes, libellous no.
Thanks for your two cents, but I’m going to put more stock in the opinion of the lawyer (who is not Jason) I spoke to then I’m going to put in the opinion of random unnamed Internet commenter.
January 11, 2009 at 9:11 am
PSA —A few people had asked in recent days what my reaction to the supposed “purge” of several bloggers from Liblogs (MoS, LeDaro, and Foottothefire) for various reasons and so I made my feelings about the matter known through the prism of responding to CC’s somewhat combative and provocative challenge.
It’s unfortunate that he’s seen fit to “purge” me from your blogroll over this and slag me off as just another “hooker” for a “vile little douche” etc., but of course that’s his prerogative.
January 11, 2009 at 9:26 am
Jeff, Thanks for the explanation.
RT, I didn’t know Foot had also been removed. When did that happen?
January 11, 2009 at 9:42 am
Earlier in the week I believe (although I could be wrong).
You know, to be honest, I generally don’t follow these things too closely.
I think it was in response to a post targeted by Ezra that included the following:
This was jumped on by SDA and of course many “Conservatives” then decided that Liblogs, the Liberal Party and the “Left” in general was rife with anti-Semites.
It’s all quite groan-worthy, isn’t it?
January 11, 2009 at 9:55 am
Interesting how you go ape over others simplifying people’s views as pro or anti, yet you have no trouble doing the same with those whose views don’t fall exactly in line with yours.
No Jeff, I’ve read your blog and read what you have posted. I think you are rather ignorant and ill-informed. Your can have any opinion you want, and you have posted them on your blog. Hence a big difference between what you and Jason have done.
Now, you are defending the actions of Jason with specious arguments.
Jason Cherniak has gone out to criticize those that are not “right-thinking”.
He posted “the official position of Liblogs on the fighting in Israel and Gaza” after his first diatribe started to cause ripples amongst Liberal bloggers.
Any criticism of Israel gets people labelled as anti-Semites. What Jason tried to do via the Liblogs was bully and intimidate those critical of Israeli actions in the Gaza via Liblogs.
Now you have stated that the post was removed, Jason of course infers something else. “The statement was no longer necessary after this article was posted”
/a>
The implications that any criticism of Israeli actions is akin to hate speech.
So who’s the liar, you or Jason?
As for LeDaro being censored this was removed: Gaza: “Big Concentration Camp”.
This is a direct quote from the Vatican press release…
Hardly slanderous or libellous but enough for someone at Liblogs to think it deserves to be removed…
So yes, I think that Jason Cherniak via liblogs is acting as an IDF official propagandist and censor.
And not a very bright one at that, he sent a pro-Isreal “facts” email without even knowing the source…. Could it be that because he wanted it to be true and was his ideology that he just blindly emailed people? It’s rather slimy of him.
James Curran and I don’t exactly have the same views on what is going on there but I have much more respect for him because at least he debates in an honest manner.
Now, here is what you have written on your blog.
And they automatically dismiss anything that doesn’t fit their bias. Take this attack on the school yesterday that killed 40. According to reports Hamas militants were using the school as a base/shield for attacks. It seems to be a common Hamas tactic. But I read many blog commentaries that either fail to mention the reports Hamas was using the school as a shield while they condemned the Israeli attack, or dismissed it outright as lies and propaganda. Why, because a terrorist organization like Hamas would never do such a terrible thing? Please, that’s stupid. You must know better than that. They’re terrorists!
Those who criticized Israel’s version of the story have been proven right. I don’t exactly see a correction from your part. Odd how you base your argument on a false story. So guess what? It was propaganda and you gladly propagated it.
Nound of Sound has laid out fair arguments and you called it an “completely asinine contention” – I wonder if you even read the post….
You then go one to repeat an argument that Israel wants to be repeated “I think Hamas should as well, and that includes stopping using civilians as human shields.”. The only reports I’ve seen come from an IDF run information centre…
Then, you confirm that any criticism of Israel is bigotry by writing: “But I’m also loathe to be associated with some of the anti-Israel bigotry that has been appearing on the Liblogs aggregate”.
Really, there was bigotry? Or are you trying to say push an agenda that no Liberals should criticize Israel?
Maybe Liberals are responsible for some of the killing there by not speaking up their views and having King Iggy the bloody dictate what we should think…
January 11, 2009 at 9:56 am
^ sorry Red, can you edit that link in there…?
January 11, 2009 at 10:07 am
Red, are you pissed because CC has some integrity to stand behind what he wrote?
I have no intention of promoting that vile little douche or his despicable forum. If you want to continue blogging for Jason, hey, that’s your call. But if that’s your decision, you sure as hell won’t be getting any shout-outs from my b
All these “shout-outs” and links to help with Google rankings. Part of the goal of aggregators is to help with visitors.
January 11, 2009 at 10:25 am
This was jumped on by SDA and of course many “Conservatives” then decided that Liblogs, the Liberal Party and the “Left” in general was rife with anti-Semites.
I’d like to see Jeff respond to that. That kind of reaction is why the Conservatives are always singling out some intemperance and using it to smear all Liberals. They do it because it works. And with Warren Kinsella back on the scene, it’s gotten worse.
January 11, 2009 at 10:32 am
You know, the irony here is that I agree with Jason’s position on Israel, I just think his actions have been unfortunate in terms of becoming a lightening rod and causing problems with members of Liblogs. Sigh…
So BCer, I do think that you need something more formal. When an organization is first starting up, they can just fly by the seat of their pants, and use minimal rules, but after awhile, things get personal.
The reason I do think that someone else should help head it up and that it might work is because this exact same issue came up with another blog community I frequent, the pregnancy loss/infertility bloggers. There was a very popular blogger who was quite controversial who hosted our community blogroll for a long time. And you either loved her or you hated her, and things got very emotional on a regular basis, especially when it was something she felt strongly about.
After one giant blowout fight, the controversial blogger decided she had had enough bs for a lifetime, so she quit hosting it, and handed over hosting duties to another very very different woman.
Mel, the new host, is about as zen as they come and is kind and professional and utterly completely even-handed. And the whole community has been transformed because everyone feels fairly treated, even when they disagree with each other. Plus, there are now newspaper articles about us, media attention, respect from the wider community, and Mel even got a book deal that she has used to spread the word on our issues.
And in the end, that was more important to us than one person’s ego.
Liblogs needs to keep their eyes on the prize. Do you want to spend all of your time fighting each other, or the Tories?
January 11, 2009 at 12:03 pm
CWTF — Red, are you pissed because CC has some integrity to stand behind what he wrote?
I’m honestly not “pissed” about this and to a large extent can understand where CC is coming from. Like I said, it’s an unfortunate way to deal with things that doesn’t strike me as being terribly constructive, but hey… it’s his prerogative.
I’ve never felt under any odiously repressive constraints when it comes to expressing my opinions simply from being affiliated with Liblogs. Had that been the case, then I would have left a long time ago. I took note of some of the spats that seemed to be erupting in regards to James Curran, et. al. but have been busy, preoccupied with other shit, and wasn’t paying all that much attention to them. Likewise, I noted that Jason made a “sticky” post at the top of Liblogs that I quickly parsed as “blah, blah, blah… Israel… be civil and stop acting like complete jackasses… blah, blah, blah…”
What does tick me off a little is that these silly, largely manufactured disputes tend to put a damper on truly legitimate differences of opinion and open discussion about matters of curiosity and interest.
For example, I had wanted to look more at the influence of AIPAC in this matter, revisit the “Israel Lobby” angle and consider how this dovetails with the power void of the transition, etc. but now feel that it’s all going to get distorted through the lens of some retarded pissing match between bloggers.
January 11, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Red you asked me whether I left or was booted from Liblogs. I wasn’t sure for a while whether I was going to respond to this but, if you are interested, my account has been recorded at Liberal Arts & Minds at the end of the comments section.
http://liberal-arts-and-minds.blogspot.com/2009/01/expectations.html
Judge for yourself. I’m not going to put up with smears by some pissant like Cherniak.
January 11, 2009 at 9:07 pm
MoS — Fair enough. Like I said, I was just trying to get the facts regarding what happened.
January 12, 2009 at 5:48 am
What a mess. Sad part is that none of this had to happen.
January 12, 2009 at 6:18 am
And now Curran is gone….sigh…..jesus effin christ people, can someone get their head outta their ass and figure out how to fix this mess?
January 12, 2009 at 7:44 am
Aurelia, something is happening….
January 12, 2009 at 8:00 am
Yea, CWTF, it’s called Jim wasn’t happy, so he left, as was his prerogative and choice to do so.
January 12, 2009 at 4:58 pm
So Scott, you mean that we should all abide by Jason “blows dead bears” Cherniak….
I think that you are over simplifying it.
I don’t think you’d start playing God over at Progressive Bloggers with to content and making some posts go “Poof” now would you?
January 12, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Look CWTF, Jason runs the aggregate. He owns the domain name. He owns the domain. He decides the rules, and he has the discretion to do what he thinks to be correct and what he thinks. If people are unhappy with his running and his choices so strongly, then the choice is very clear; they can withdraw from Liblogs, as Jim has done. If some people believe that an alternative Liberal or liberal blogging aggregate can be run better, then nothing stops them from forming it and seeing if they’re correct.
I say the same thing over my way at Prog Blog to folks who get ticked off at me; if some other people think they can do it better, then I’m not going to stop them from trying, and best of luck to them.
You don’t even run a blog, CWTF, so I’m not sure why you’re all up in arms about it.
January 12, 2009 at 5:52 pm
If some people believe that an alternative Liberal or liberal blogging aggregate can be run better, then nothing stops them from forming it and seeing if they’re correct.
It’s being worked on.
Stay tuned.
January 13, 2009 at 3:57 pm
“Look CWTF, Jason runs the aggregate.”
that doesn’t exempt him from criticism.
KEvron
January 13, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Yeah, really.
What’s the downside for you, a few Liberals won’t read your blog? They’ve been really bitchy lately, even after replacing their leader.
Most of them can’t read, anyways.
January 13, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I have no idea why such an inordinate number of so-called “conservatives” are such habitual and flagrant LIARS.
50 cents a lie! Do you think we do it for free?
January 13, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Most of them can’t read, anyways.
Oh, Moe…
January 14, 2009 at 6:42 am
It is better to be a troll that a toilet nugget
Sounds like a Neil Young lyric….
January 14, 2009 at 7:08 am
There are a lot more crazy people in the World than I ever thought.
January 14, 2009 at 8:59 am
And in other news little Adolf Hitler was removed from his parents….
January 14, 2009 at 12:05 pm
New liberal aggregator:
http://www.liberalsonline.ca
January 14, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Interesting.
Thanks for the link.
January 16, 2009 at 3:11 am
Just like you, I go forever with out reading RSS. My view is, if it’s important at all, It will hit my twitter stream.