Astounding… « Red Tory v.3.0

Robert McClelland
October 26, 2008 at 7:03 am

What is astounding about this that leaves you speechless?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:03 am

Joe’s had too many 3-martini brunches; Obama’s campaign paid ACORN $800,000 for “services”, according to http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/election/s_584284.html That’s on top of his legal work for ACORN, and he worked as a “leadership trainer” for the group. Before their voter fraud scheme came to light, Obama was happy to highlight these facts on his web-page, but now he’s trying to disassociate himself from them, “poof”, down the memory hole they go.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 7:07 am

Robert — Oh, I don’t know… the hectoring nature of the interview, quoting Karl Marx and pointedly suggesting that Obama is a “socialist” for starters.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 7:11 am

SDC — Keep quoting from Scaife publications… it really enhances your credibility.

knb
October 26, 2008 at 7:41 am

Those questions could have been written for a SNL skit. Had I been Biden, I think I would have burst out laughing.

I noticed some BT’s suggesting that Biden flew off the handle, became outraged, walked out, etc. during this interview.

I guess we live in a parallel universe after all.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 7:48 am

KNB — The US election seems to be lunging into complete lunacy at this point where the lines between satire and reality are becoming hopelessly blurred. Is it real or something ripped from The Onion? It hardly seems to make any difference.

Robert McClelland
October 26, 2008 at 8:26 am

I understand what’s wrong with it, Red. I just don’t understand why business as usual in the American media has left you speechless.

Hishighness
October 26, 2008 at 8:32 am

Yeah, I saw a bunch of wingnuts cheering on this trollop. I guess they’re ok with bias in media as long as it’s on their side…

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 8:35 am

Robert — I don’t know, every once in a while I just get completely gobsmacked by how moronic and idiotic it all is. I should be more jaded, I suppose and nothing should surprise or astound me in the least bit, but it does…

Dammit.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 8:39 am

Trollop… Heh. No kidding.

I should have bookmarked it, but there was an article I read stating that the appeal of Palin was… well, precisely that.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 9:23 am

It’s not just a “Scaife publication”, RT; the Obamessiah had to retroactively submit changes to his campaign finance statements to cover that $800,000, which sort of leaves me wondering exactly what “services” that money was for, and why he felt the need to hide it from people in the first place. Now, if a “conservative” was to do something similar, I have no doubt we’d be hearing about it from the rooftops, but when it comes to BHO, he’s given a pat on the back, and nothing more is said about the matter. It wouldn’t be that the MSM are cheerleaders for Obama, would it?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 9:27 am

SDC — Cut the bull. What’s your problem with Obama?

Joseph
October 26, 2008 at 9:45 am

It gave me hope actually that the conservatives so wanted to jump on this as some horrid incident for the Obama campaign when to anyone else I’ve asked (including my Republican-leaning family members in Florida) thought Joe did a wonderful job responding to a “media personality” who thought she was having her Katie Couric moment.

“But sir, doesn’t it concern you that the man standing next to you on your ticket might be a terrorist hell-bent on destroying our great nation? How do you convince the American people to blithely dismiss that increasingly apparent possibility?”

; ).

I find it encouraging that they are hanging their hats on these examples in their ongoing search for the saviour moment.

It spares them the ongoing embarrassments elsewhere.

Have you heard that in addition to Ms “Big Black Man Assaulted Me for Supporting McCain” in PA, the campaign there has also dismissed a high-level campaign worker for sending out 75,000 emails last week (at just about the same time I hasten to add) to Jewish PA voters suggesting that a vote for Obama would be equivalent to “ignoring the warning signs in Germany in the early 1930s”?

Yeah, now that’s a well-managed campaign. But, lookie, Biden had to face questions from an aging moonbat in South Florida. Lookie here quick!

Blues Clair
October 26, 2008 at 10:19 am

That was amazing.

“I don’t know who is writing your questions”

What’s wrong with Sweden? The country seems to be doing pretty good.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 10:26 am

There’s nothing at all wrong with Sweden. In fact, it’s a model we could all do well to emulate. I don’t imagine however that Biden wanted to go down that particular path with this ridiculous local news anchor (Ted Baxter in drag).

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 10:38 am

The same “problem” I have with ANYONE who wants power to enable them to shove their ideas down everyone else’s throats; purely from an ideological standpoint, he wants more government interference/control over the lives of Americans, which requires more tax revenue to be stolen from those same Americans. When you add in his long list of questionable associates (ranging from domestic terrorists (Ayers) to Muslim extremists (Khalidi) to racist pastors (Wright) to criminals who have loaned him a lot of money (Rezko) to his past involvement in the corrupt Chicago political scene, he has a lot to answer for, but he never answers those questions, he simply brushes them off with “well, I was never that close to them”, or his machine goes on a “you must be a racist” full-court press. Obama has been cut a LOT of slack on these issues and many more, simply because the media wants him to win.

Blues Clair
October 26, 2008 at 10:39 am

Ha,

Yes, Biden wouldn’t want to go down that path. I just couldn’t believe that lady thought Sweden was such a bad example on how to Govern a country.

10 days, is 10 days too long. I’m tired of this presidential race.

Though, as a Liberal and big Dion supporter, I’m enjoying watching the media speculating on the discord between Palin’s and McCain’s advisers.

Jane Taber needs to head south… I’m sure there is plenty of anonymous tips to be had.

RuralSandi
October 26, 2008 at 10:55 am

SDC – huh? You’ve just repeated the “rhetoric” that the McCain camp is throwing around – how smart is that?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 11:21 am

How is it “rhetoric”? These are questions that deserve an honest answer from someone that wants to be the leader of (for now, anyway) the most powerful country in the world, and all that I’ve seen the Obamatons do is say “ignore it, these questions aren’t worth worrying about” or worse, say “the only reason you’re asking these questions is because you must be a RACIST!”. You know as well as I do that if McCain had anything resembling any of these associates in his background, the media would be crawling up his ass with a microscope trying to dig up as much as they could, but when it comes to Obama, it’s suddenly “hands off, everyone; this is our golden boy, and we don’t want to jeopardize his chances”.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 11:28 am

BC — 10 days and counting… it can’t come fast enough. This race as become tedious beyond belief Case in point, the aimless yammering and boilerplate Faux News talking points of SDC.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 11:33 am

Just like Obama, RT, you’re going to do anything to avoid the questions I’ve raised; if there’s really nothing “there” there, his campaign should be able to give some straight answers to some straight questions, but they have done everything BUT give straight answers. You also can’t pin this all on “Faux” News, since even CNN has done a surprising number of stories on the scheme that ACORN has been running.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 11:41 am

Oh yawn. The “scheme” ACORN is running is nothing more than voter registration, and yes, there are some of their paid workers who have gamed the system and registered bogus names (because there’s an incentive for them to do so, unfortunately) that ACORN is, by law, required to report, and they have pointed out to the authorities where they feel there are discrepancies in the lists turned in.

There’s no big scam involved here. Your references to “Obamamessiah” and “BHO” are dead give-aways to your dopey, Fox News inspired, Kool-Aid® soaked POV.

Give it a rest. McCain is toast. Get used to the idea that you’re going to have a (half) black president for the next four years. Suck it up, bub.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 11:51 am

Two things, RT; one, if the ACORN thing was only about junkies stealing money from them for signing up non-existent voters, that would be one thing, and I wouldn’t have nearly as much problem with it. But, it appears that at least SOME people have been able to vote multiple times under multiple names and fraudulent addresses, so that doesn’t just affect ACORN anymore, it affects EVERYONE (shades of Anne Mclellan in Redmonton, where people on the voters list were found to have registered bus terminals and vacant lots as their place of residence); two, whether Obama or McCain wins, neither of them will be “MY” president, as I’m not an American, and if I was, I doubt I could bring myself to vote for either of them in the first place. Now, do you have anything substantive to say about these issues, or are you going to follow the playbook of shooting the messenger?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 12:04 pm

First of all, who said anything about “junkies”? Clearly, you are working from some kind of narrative here that I’m not entirely familiar with.

Secondly, do you have PROOF that “SOME people have been able to vote multiple times under multiple names and fraudulent addresses”? Because, if that’s actually the case, it would be a federal offense… So, have charges been laid?

If you’re not an American and appear not to care one way or the other who wins the election, then why are you so worked up over this issue?

I’m not an American either, but I have very sympathetic leanings south of the border for various reasons (not to mention the fact that I pay some amount of taxes down there…). More than anything, I just can’t take any more of the Republican wrecking crew that’s demolished everything that’s decent and admirable about America. I’m fed up. Enough! It’s time for a change.

Raphael Alexander
October 26, 2008 at 12:06 pm

RT: Check out my take on this video on my blog.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 12:14 pm

RA — LOL

Yes, with the benefit of hindsight we could all have a lot of fun with this silly person’s asinine questions. I thought Joe (“Joe the Senator”) did pretty well extemporaneously.

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 12:21 pm

SDC – Being a gallant crusader for fair voting, I’m sure you’ll devote equal space to expressing your outrage over this and this.

Hmmm? Hmmm?

RT – To agree with an earlier commenter, it’s amazing that some Americans use Sweden as an example of the “horrors of socialism”. Sweden!!! Are they insane?

Along the same lines, Bill Maher in his last show commented on the fact that McCain is now invoking the Cuban missile crisis as an example of how a young president would be “tested”. Maher points out that Kennedy handled that crisis pretty well, all things considered. Had McCain been president, none of us would be here today because the earth would have been reduced to a “nuclear ash heap”, as Maher put it. A point seemingly lost on the GOP talking heads.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 12:41 pm

I wouldn’t trust McCain to manage the night shift at the local gas station… why anyone would want to make him “leader of the free world” completely escapes me.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 12:44 pm

You need to do a bit of research, RT; a number of the people that ACORN has enlisted in its voter drives are junkies, felons, and/or other people that are disbarred from voting in the US, and if ACORN was willing to give them $10 per filled-in form, why should anyone be surprised that they sat down with a phone book and started filling in names? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_mAIKORGp8
Second, Obama supporters have been able to keep a pretty tight lid on this problem up until the last few weeks, but at least some prosecutors are now being forced to deal with it, and various ACORN officials are now under indictment for turning in truckloads of obviously-fraudulent forms; that still doesn’t explain how some states now have more people on their voters lists than there are eligible voters in the entire STATE; now, place yourself in the position of a law-enforcement official who is presented with a form saying that “Mickey Mouse” of 123 Fairyland Drive voted on Nov. 11, and you go to 123 Fairyland Drive to inquire of Mr. Mouse whether he is, in fact, an eligible voter, and you find an empty lot, what are you going to do? Hopefully, you would disallow that vote, correct? Well, multiply that problem by the thousands upon thousands of times that this ACORN organization has submitted forms for, and you might just get through that process by around 2016, if you’re lucky. But by that time, it would be a moot issue, wouldn’t it?
I’m no more a fan of Bush than many of the other people who post here, but I don’t have the full-on case of Bush Derangement Syndrome that affects so many on the left. However, I don’t want to see an election stolen simply because somebody “wants a change”, or because “we want our turn to fuck things up for a change, dammit”.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Shorter SDC: Blah, blah, blah…

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Yes, Red Canuck, if someone registers to caste a fraudulent vote, they should be treated equally no matter who they intend to vote for; so, on the one hand, we have one confirmed instance on the part of the Republicans, and on the other hand, we have thousands of confirmed instances on the part of the Democrats. As to the second problem, I would hope that the various states would have gotten their shit together a long time before now when it comes to their voters lists; the law was passed in 2002, and now, in 2008, they suddenly realize that there’s a problem if they don’t start solving their mess? They can avoid much of this mess simply by requiring voters to present a photo ID that has an address when they vote, but the Democrats don’t like that solution either.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Anything to avoid addressing the issue, right RT?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 12:55 pm

SDC — You still haven’t answered my question. All of this ACORN nonsense aside, what’s your problem with Obama? And why does it have you riled up so much?

hugger
October 26, 2008 at 1:06 pm

“I don’t know, every once in a while I just get completely gobsmacked by how moronic and idiotic it all is. I should be more jaded, I suppose and nothing should surprise or astound me in the least bit, but it does… ”

A world without hope, conscience and heart, is a dark place.

No shortage of jaded souls though.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 1:08 pm

You didn’t read my third post in this thread RT? I explained my “problem” with Obama there, but you’ve fallen back on “I can’t hear you, blah, blah, blah” twice now. I’m hardly “riled up”, RT, but you know as well as I do that elections are supposed to be at the heart of what make a “democracy” a “democracy”; if one person or party is able to rig an election in their favour, it throws the idea of democracy out the window.

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 1:13 pm

SDC – Your example makes absolutely no sense. If I work for ACORN and register someone named Mickey Mouse, ACORN pays me $5.

Is this illegal? Yes
Is this voter registration fraud? Yes
Is this voter fraud? No.

Why? Because no one named Mickey Mouse exists, and so no one by that name will show up to vote on election day (which by the way is Nov 4, not Nov 11).

In fact, the real problem is quite the opposite. Legitimate registered voters are being denied their right to vote by the thousands in each state because of minor technicalities. For example, if someone is registered under Bill A. Smith, but their DL says William A. Smith, they are being denied, even if their address and everything else matches up.

Anyways, none of this addresses the fact that the Obama campaign has not paid ACORN a dime to register voters. So as RT asks…what is your problem with Obama?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 1:17 pm

SDC — So I guess you’re just as agitated about all of the Republican shenanigans when it comes to “rigging” the vote, right? Huh…huh? Not hearing too much about that from you. How about the purging of voter lists, the tampering with absentee ballots, the short-changing of machines in certain areas, the fiddling with calibration of machines in Republican controlled districts, suppression of votes from minorities, etc., etc, etc.

hugger
October 26, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Trollop… Heh. No kidding.

I should have bookmarked it, but there was an article I read stating that the appeal of Palin was… well, precisely that.

Makes me giggle. Did anyone ever spend a winter in the woods with the Bears? Alaska is pretty cold and remote in the great scheme, and a Mountain Man has impulses too ya know. It’s not all about Sex in the City and all that deception.

Reminds me of a 72 virgins joke.

Smile, God loves you too.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 1:31 pm

No, Red Canuck, the REAL problem is that if someone claiming to be “Mickey Mouse” shows up to vote on Nov. 11 (or has already voted by mail, or in an advance poll, both of which have already taken place), and casts a vote, everyone KNOWS there is no way in hell to stop that fraudulent vote from being cast (the “2016″ problem I alluded to earlier), and that IS fraud. As for Obama “not paying a dime to ACORN”, perhaps you can enlighten us as to what exactly that $800,000 was for? What exactly would be the overwhelming burden on democracy if voters were simply required to prove their identity when they voted, by presenting ID with an address and photo? Hopefully, after another 4 years, the states will have gotten their shit together, and will have voters lists that actually mean something, right? You can read my third post too (and maybe explain it to RT).
RT, if any of these things are actually happening, then yes, I AM angry about those too. The answer isn’t to try to justify stealing an election just because you think that maybe it wasn’t done properly last time.

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 1:42 pm

SDC – someone claiming to be “Mickey Mouse” shows up to vote on Nov. 11 (or has already voted by mail, or in an advance poll, both of which have already taken place

Do you have any proof of this? Can you prove that even a single fraudulently registered voter has actually cast a vote? Can you provide a single link?

Perhaps you should read this before indulging in any more of your tiresome GOP talking points.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 1:52 pm

SDC — If the issue of “voter fraud” irks you so much then I strongly suggest you check out the fine journalism of Greg Palast (which I’ve featured here in the past)… Go Google it (or just do a search on this site, if you care to). Do some research of your own. Quit already with the bullshit talking points and lame anti-Obama nattering.

Rob
October 26, 2008 at 1:57 pm

SDC,

Actually there are significant problems with asking for photo ID in many states. There are many citizens who do not have a single piece of photo identification whatsoever. In particular the elderly voter who does not drive, does not have a driver’s license and does not have a passport. There is also the homeless citizen who does not have a driver’s license, a passport, or an address to call home.

This then leads into another point. Homeless citizens. In the State of Michigan a voter can register by listing the cross streets at which they consider themselves living. This allows homeless persons to be able to vote, which is their right as citizens of the country.

Despite the gigantic stink that is being made on the right about “voter fraud”, the actual problem in the US is “election fraud”. By that I mean the partisan gaming of the system on the vote-counting end. Check out http://www.blackboxvoting.com and you’ll see what I am talking about. Or just look up Robert F. Kennedy Jr’s article about the 400,000 votes that were stolen in the 2004 election in the state of Ohio alone.

RW

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 2:14 pm

Rob — SDC seems to think we’re being rather cavalier about this issue, but quite the contrary we’re all too familiar with how the game is played and therefore find his quibbles about admitted irregularities with ACORN’s voter registration efforts to extremely tiresome and, ultimately, irrelevant. If he took a “fair and balanced” look at the situation overall he might be quite surprised at what gets turned up.

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 2:20 pm

RFK Jr was on the Rachel Maddow show last week, discussing that very article. Depressing really how much of this nonsense goes on in the self-described bastion of democracy.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Isn’t it though? I’ve spent many hours (insomnia, what can I say…) listening to Ralph Nader discussing how ridiculously difficult it is to get on the ballot — and that’s before the systemic fraud begins…

Such a farce.

As clapped out and lame as our elections may be, they’re models of probity and transparency by comparison to the ramshackle clusterfuck that passes for “democracy” in the USA.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Red Canuck, both of those POLLS have already taken place, meaning that those votes will be counted, whether they’re fraudulent or not; this is the problem, since no-one is going to come back next July and say “Oops, we went through all the votes cast, and, after disallowing those that weren’t legal, we found out that your opponent won”. I remember hearing a hell of a lot of bitching about Bush “stealing” a election because of less than 500 votes in Florida a few years ago, so do you really expect me to believe that this ACORN scheme won’t be used by even a few partisans to try to tip things in their favour?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 2:44 pm

SDC — Have charges been filed? Simple yes or no answer will do here.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 2:49 pm

RT, re. Palast’s BBC story, yes, I’ve seen that clip. Is your argument now that “oh, everyone does it, so it’s OK if we do it too (and besides, we’re the good guys, so it’s best for everyone if we win)”? Both Palast’s left-leaning presentation, and CNN’s middle of the road stories on ACORN show there are serious problems with the voting system in many US states, but that is no reason to not try to FIX those problems, right?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 2:55 pm

You’re boring. Get a life.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Rob, in this case, it leaves the entire PROCESS of voting wide open to fraud on an unimaginable scale; all you would need to do is spend election day travelling around to various polling stations, claiming that you’re a homeless person who resides in a cardboard box at the intersection of “X” and “Y”, and you would again be able to vote multiple times. You wouldn’t accept that if a McCain voter was doing it, I’m sure, so why should we accept it if an Obama voter was doing it? We shouldn’t, and valid ID is the only method of preventing it.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Out of order here, but yes, RT, charges have been filed in ACORN’s vote-rigging scheme (precisely the reason why Obama is now attempting to claim he has nothing to do with the group). As for “getting a life”, I’m assuming you don’t have anything useful to say on the actual issue when you studiously avoid it.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 3:03 pm

RT, how is wanting every valid vote counted, and non-valid votes disallowed, being anything BUT “fair and balanced”? Maybe you’ve bought into the line that the only “fair and balanced” result is seeing “The One” elected?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Allow me to repeat: you’re boring.

Pay the same attention to systemic voter suppression on the part of the Republicans and you might have a tad more credibility. As it is, you’re just a bigoted jackass with a stick up his ass.

So what is your problem with Obama anyway?

Never mind. I think it’s quite plain as day for all to see.

Now go bother someone else, okay?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 3:43 pm

RT: “Waah!! You’re just a racist, and I don’t feel like having an adult debate!!!”

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 3:52 pm

SDC – do you really expect me to believe that this ACORN scheme won’t be used by even a few partisans to try to tip things in their favour?

I give not one tiny shit what you believe or don’t believe. If you can prove voter fraud (not voter registration fraud) then do so. If not, then your “beliefs” are little more than the paranoid ravings of a partisan hack.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Oh, give it a rest you pathetic twat. “Adult debate” my ass. You refuse to discuss the systemic suppression of votes by Republicans, you parrot tedious talking points doled out from the right-wing noise machine that have been finely macerated and spewed out through the great Wurlitizer. Do you think that I just fell off the turnip wagon? Go pedal your dismal shite someplace else. You have nothing of interest to contribute here.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 4:35 pm

And since no-one will be able to prove fraud to your satisfaction after the fact, Red Canuck, I guess you’re just fine with stealing an election (as long as it goes the way you want it to, that is). You wouldn’t happen to be one of those left-wing partisan hacks that were beating the drum about “Bush stole the election” after the Florida recounts, were you?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 4:39 pm

RT, what is it that you want me to say regarding election fraud? I’ve already said that it’s wrong no matter who does it at least three times, and that if it happens, it should be punished by disallowing those votes and putting the responsible parties in prison. Your response? “You must be a racist.” Well, who can argue with logic like that?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 5:23 pm

I don’t want you to say anything. I want you to go away. You’re profoundly boring and dull. What part of “bugger off” don’t you understand?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 5:34 pm

Closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying “Blah, blah, blah, I can’t hear you anymore” doesn’t change reality, RT, and I thought you were old enough to realize that by now ;-

KEvron
October 26, 2008 at 5:43 pm

has anyone mentioned acorn yet? *snort!*

their desperation is comforting….

KEvron

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 5:44 pm

Troll elsewhere, “SDC” — I don’t know how I can make it any more plain that that.

But before I ban your ass forever, what does “SDC” stand for, by the way? Society of Dyers and Colourists (an “international professional society specialising in colour in all its manifestations”)…?

Now that would be rather deliciously ironic.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 5:56 pm

Asking questions that deserve to be answered is hardly “trolling” RT, as much as you would like to pretend otherwise; I’ve given answer after answer to the questions asked of me in this thread, but no-one (least of all YOU) have bothered to do the same. Now, this being your little corner of the internet, you have every right to close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears, and ban me for asking uncomfortable questions, but that still doesn’t change REALITY, does it? (Including the reality that Obama gave ACORN more than $800,000 for unspecified “services”.) The letters SDC are simply my initials, since I don’t have the inclination to come up with a catchy alter-ego for internet use.

Raphael Alexander
October 26, 2008 at 6:03 pm

SDC,

Doesn’t your brain hurt from curb-stombing it so repetitively here?

If you haven’t noticed, nobody is impressed by your knowledge about Obama’s sinister ties to ACORN. Even if all you said were correct, I doubt half the people in this room would care. It hardly represents a blade of grass to the sheer undemocratic field we’ve seen from the GOP administration lo these past 8 years.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 6:22 pm

SDC — You are barking up the completely wrong tree here. I could not give a good god damn about ACORN or anything of that nature — what trivial, irrelevant nonsense! I also don’t care about Obama’s “palling around with terrorists” either. He could be Osama Bin Laden’s brother-in-law for all I care. It could not possible be worse that another four years of the dreadful, monstrously stupid, heinously incompetent, utterly ruinous Bush-Cheney continuum.

If these were vital concerns for you, they should have been raised three, four, five, six, seven months ago. Not ten days before the election.

I’m quite satisfied that Obama is the entirely satisfactory “lesser evil” of the choices on offer. Case closed, end of story.

In fact, I think he might be quite good deal better than that, but I’m hedging… I’d like to be pleasantly surprised, but I expect little to nothing. Set the bar low and all that…

KEvron
October 26, 2008 at 6:25 pm

actually, our acorn scheme has worked out quite nicely; their efforts will be the final nail in the coffin of that moribund institution, the rnc.

when the time comes, sdc, i will take great pleasure in indoctrinating your children into the new socialist system myself. long live the new flesh!

KEvron

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 6:35 pm

I could go on about how awful the Bush regime has been…. Really.

SDC’s pettifogging complaints about ACORN seem quite minuscule and trite in comparison to the deaths of a few hundred thousand people wasted and several millions displaced as a consequence of an utterly misbegotten, illegal war… not to mention the other misguided, hapless war that’s going nowhere fast. Hey, SDC… How about you show one iota of concern for the $56 trillion debt your Republican buds have run up (Oh no… it’s not just $11 trillion as is frequently bandied around… it’s waaaay more than that!). Kind of makes your pissant little ACORN thing seem like peanuts, doesn’t it?

So excuse me for saying, with all due respect, to fuck right off and die, okay?

Bowler
October 26, 2008 at 6:35 pm

I stopped reading SDC’s ramblings after his third post, which was little more than neo-con “dog whistle” code which has dominated American political discourse for the last 30 years but, God willing, Americans are about to kick to the curb in a big way on November 4.

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 6:40 pm

Got back from my walk and was surprised to find SDC still yammering on.

SDC go read through this thread. Many people have spent valuable time trying to educate you. You refuse to listen to reason, refuse to provide facts to back up your allegations, and refuse to discuss matters of actual relevance to the upcoming election. So be it.

If we all just admit that you are right – that Barack Obama is a shameless fraudster, that all the polls are wrong and the Dems need to steal victory from McCain by rigging the vote, abducting GOP voters, and molesting their children, and that ACORN is the earthly manifestation of Satan – will you promise to go away? Please?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Ahh… I should have offered candy.

Silly me.

Red Canuck
October 26, 2008 at 6:44 pm

I think he just wants to win the thread.

KEvron
October 26, 2008 at 6:54 pm

“If we all just admit that you are right”

our shceme is even more enjoyable now that it’s been exposed yet they’re powerless to stop it.

KEvron

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Sadly, Raphael, I think you’re right; even if it was proven conclusively that Obama managed to steal the upcoming election, most of the people posting here simply wouldn’t care, because they have such an over-riding hate on for “McChimpyHaliburtonSatanShrub”, or whatever the catchy nickname is this week. That does not change the fact that, in a democracy, the over-riding principle is “one person, one vote”. I originally had higher hopes for Bush II, but he has fallen far short of those hopes, particularly in fiscal matters. But, BUSH ISN’T RUNNING AGAIN, remember, and as bad as he was, I certainly don’t want to see him replaced by someone even worse, no matter how “well spoken” that someone is.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:09 pm

“If these were vital concerns for you, they should have been raised three, four, five, six, seven months ago. Not ten days before the election.”

Unless I’m wrong, RT, this thread was posted SIXTEEN HOURS AGO, not three, four, five, six, or seven months ago, and that was when comments were invited. I certainly hope that Obama won’t be as bad as he’s likely to be, but that certainly doesn’t mean that he should be free from the same sort of examination or criticism that has been directed at anyone else.

sharonapple88
October 26, 2008 at 7:10 pm

I think he just wants to win the thread.

Why? Is there a prize inside?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:16 pm

As I said before, RT, Bush II has fallen far, FAR short of my expectations as a fiscal conservative (and a social libertarian); I’m not about to try to defend his war in Iraq (that is something that should have been taken care of by Bush I, but he didn’t take the opportunity then). The question now is “Who replaces him?”, and I’m simply hoping that a slick PR campaign and a $5 million dollar “Greek temple” doesn’t put a fraud with sleazy associates into power.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:23 pm

No, Red Canuck, as a matter of principle, I refuse to be shouted down; you continue to insist that “Obama hasn’t paid a dime to ACORN”, yet Obama’s OWN FINANCE STATEMENTS show that he paid them $832,598.29, and he won’t say what that money was for. That is a fact that flies directly in the face of your assertions, and personally, I’m more than a little curious about what Obama thinks he got for that $832,598.29. Do you know, or do you just plan to continue obfuscating?

sharonapple88
October 26, 2008 at 7:25 pm

RT, Bush II has fallen far, FAR short of my expectations as a fiscal conservative (and a social libertarian);

I’m surprised that you have any expectations of a man who got into Yale as a legacy and bankrupting a number of oil companies (getting money essentially on his father’s name).

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:25 pm

“I think he just wants to win the thread.”

As sharonapple says, “IS there a prize”?

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Should my expectations of a man who was steeped in Chicago politics and has associates like Ayers, Khalidi, Wright, Rezko, et al, be any better?

sharonapple88
October 26, 2008 at 7:28 pm

SDC, if anything you say is true, go to the authorities. It’s pointless to talk about it on this blog. For one thing, we’re Canadians, we can’t vote in this election. It’s like complaing about Obama to Swiss.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:34 pm

Exactly, sharonapple, but if lefties in Canada can stand on the sidelines and praise Obama and hang Bush in effigy by booing McCain, why should that be a one-way street?

Bowler
October 26, 2008 at 7:39 pm

I think SDC is just upset that his taxes may be “stolen” from him to pay for social services for teh black people.

SDC
October 26, 2008 at 7:43 pm

No, Bowler, the Canadian government steals quite enough of my money already, thanks (but you Obamaniacs are going to have to come up with a better comeback than “You don’t like Obama? You must be a racist.”)

Bowler
October 26, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Sorry, we’ve figured out your code…

Bowler
October 26, 2008 at 7:46 pm

Like Obama “pals around with terrorists”.

Bowler
October 26, 2008 at 7:50 pm

And my God, you’re right. This Acorn thing is really serious. I hear that’s why Obama is up 10 points in Virginia, for example.

You’re Canadian?? So, what are you worried about if Obama wins? That the US might get universal health care?

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 8:19 pm

It’s quite mysterious why “SDC” (which stands for nothing and was just lazily made up from his/her name, apparently) is as worked up about this issue as he/she appears to be, given he/she has been completely MIA for the last year or so… and suddenly — poof! The imminent possibility that Obama might win the election urgently mobilized him/her into a veritable blogging frenzy. ACORN!!! Voter fraud!!! ACORN!!! Yikes!!! Did I mention ACORN??? A black man in the White House!!! The horror, the horror…

Tomm
October 26, 2008 at 8:21 pm

RT,

I think we will be seeing some history made next week. American’s breaking through a leadership barrier.

I think it will be good for them and the rest of the planet.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Tomm — I would like to think so.

There’s something rather satisfying in being a witness to “history” being made.

Obama may not be a “great” president, but he certainly can’t be any worse than Bush and he seems considerably more able and better prepared than many of his predecessors.

I hope that some good will come of it.

If nothing else, it broadens the horizon of possibilities for a great number of people and that in itself is a positive development.

Carrie
October 26, 2008 at 8:57 pm

Damn. A whole meltdown about chipmunk food and I missed it. Life just is not fair sometimes.

redtory
October 26, 2008 at 9:01 pm

That’s one way to look at it.

Seemed pretty “nutty” to me.

Cameron
October 26, 2008 at 11:48 pm

Hey, anyone care to guess who reports most of the registration irregularities that turn up in ACORNS voting registration drives?

Go on.

I’ll wait.

ACORN DOES!

Oh, and there has been, to my knowledge, not one example of a person registered illegally by ACORN who has then gone on to commit voter fraud.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 12:04 am

Oh, I know. I pointed that out to SDC early on in the conversation and also asked if there were ever any charges laid against anyone for committing “fraud”… no answer from Mr. “Adult Argument” of course.

And if he was actually concerned about this issue and not just being a right-wing douchebag, he might have looked into outfits like “Voters’ Outreach of America” or “America Votes” and… Sproul & Assoc. all of which have engaged in highly dubious (and likely illegal) activities on behalf of the GOP.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 5:59 am

Good morning, RT (or should I say “left-wing douchebag”); if you’d care to actually READ through my above responses, you’ll see that I DID, in fact, answer your question, and yes, there have been indictments for ACORN committing fraud. And, I’ll add once again, hoping that you’ll read it this time, that these sorts of things should be treated seriously no matter who does them. Happy now?

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 6:05 am

If that’s the case, Cameron, why is it that in one district in Indiana, after ACORN turned in 5000 voter registration forms, and municipal workers began going through them to add them to the voters list, EVERY ONE OF THE FIRST 2100 FORMS were so worthless (scribbled by the same person over and over again, using completely and obviously false names and/or addresses, using the names of people who have been DEAD for months, and so on), that they refused to handle any more of those forms while there was other actual work that needed to be done?

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 6:48 am

SDC, what about “Voters’ Outreach of America,” where they shredded Democratic voters registration forms? This behaviour may be a little more troubling since whatever you think about fake registrations, they can be verified (some states require ID, check signatures, others allow challenges at the poll). Shredding documents… those peole are out of the loop.

As for ACORN have roots with Obama… they also worked with McCain (or they did before he completely lost his mind.)

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 6:51 am

those peole are out of the loop.

Er… those people.

Some voter registration fraud with groups… groups associated with Republican groups.

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 7:27 am

SDC, it is actually illegal to withhold questionable registration cards, so they have to turn in the Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, etc cards they get.

Also interesting to note… McCain gave $175,000 to Nathan Sproul (a guy who destroyed voter registration cards).

The real question, though, is that being ahead of the polls, getting recommendations from practically all of the newspapers of notes (even the largest newspaper in Alaska) — why does the Democratic party feel as though they need to commit voter fraud to win?

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 7:44 am

Sharon, as I have said MULTIPLE times now, election fraud is election fraud, and it should be treated as the serious crime it is, no matter WHO does it; by all means, hang everyone who does it in the town square, but don’t pretend that “oh, our election fraud is OK because we’re The Good Guys ™”.

[quote]The real question, though, is that being ahead of the polls, getting recommendations from practically all of the newspapers of notes (even the largest newspaper in Alaska) — why does the Democratic party feel as though they need to commit voter fraud to win?[/quote]

I wonder that myself; it seems as though no matter WHO wins, the other side will claim that the “winner” stole the election through measures such as these, which leads to the question of how to fix it.

toujoursdan
October 27, 2008 at 7:53 am

How to fix it?

The whole “registration” process in the U.S. is broken. They have a long history of turning away qualified voters. It is something that has served the Democrats in the 1950s-1960s and Republicans in the 1990s-2000s well. I don’t know if it will be changed.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 8:40 am

Certainly makes our system look good by comparison, doesn’t it?

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 8:48 am

SDC — I really don’t know what your problem is. It’s not exactly news that there is all kinds of fraud and “irregularities” in the American electoral system (which is highly dysfunctional even at the best of times). Are you therefore suggesting that the entire election is illegitimate? It’s hard to see what you’re attempting to accomplish here. Personally, I think the margin is going to be so wide that’s it probably not going to make a critical difference to the outcome. Only time will tell whether it will be worth haggling over at the end of the day on Nov. 4th. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens…

Clayton
October 27, 2008 at 9:46 am

The fact that Mccain still has a serious chance of winning this – is fucking terrifying.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 10:07 am

I wonder if the race is going to tighten up again. Let’s hope not. McCain would be disaster looking for a place to happen.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 10:30 am

Is it THAT hard to understand, RT? I believe every valid vote should be counted, and non-valid votes should be disallowed; when I point out that ACORN is apparently in the business of stuffing the voters lists full of non-existent voters (thereby leaving those names open to fraudulent misuse), your immediate response was to scream “RACIST!” And all of this is still secondary to Obama’s stated goals of “wealth re-distribution”; I suppose that might be fine if you’re the one that the wealth is being re-distributed TO, but if you happen to be the one that has worked hard for their entire life to build a comfortable life for yourself, it truly sucks to have Big Brother decide to take that away from you. To simply accept such a blatant scheme to steal an election (whether from the right or left) is wrong, and it has to be done better. The recent “recount” in Vancouver South is an ideal example; after “recounting” only 15% of the ballots cast in that riding, and seeing Ujjal’s lead drop from 33 to 22, what possible reasoning could the Liberal-appointed judge have had to STOP that recount, and simply anoint Dosanjh as the “winner”? Mathematically, if the initial count was off by 30% in only those 15% of ballots, it shows that his opponent could actually have WON, but no-one is ever going to know unless a re-count is held that actually RE-COUNTS the votes cast.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 10:39 am

SDC — Do a word search on this thread for: “racist”

Go on… do it.

You’ll find that YOU are the only one that’s mentioned the term (repeatedly). I most certainly did not “SCREAM” that at you as my first response, or indeed in any response.

I asked you several times to explain what your apparent problem is with Obama. You can answer that any way you choose to. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to reject him as a candidate. Race should really have nothing to do with it. If however that’s the case, then it’s your problem, not mine.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 12:18 pm

What exactly is “bigoted” supposed to mean, RT, other than a code-word for “racist”? I could care less that Obama is black, and there are a number of black (conservative) candidates that I would be happy to vote for, given the chance. However, I DON’T have that option, and I have already listed several reasons why I don’t like tax-and-spend big government messiahs in office.

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 12:24 pm

As someone who was a poll clerk for a Canadian election, I can say that it’s very difficult to falsify results.

1. The party that won the riding often enlists the DROs, while the runner-ups suggest the Poll Clerks — so there are people from different parties counting and observing the results.

2. Outside the DROs and the Poll Clerks, there are observers from different parties there and we had to get them to sign the results.

3. You have to account and sign for each ballot.

As for the recount… most likely they just went through the spoiled ballots.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 12:39 pm

SDC — Yes, I did use the word “bigoted” but that was at the end of the day after many, many comments and having felt that you weren’t being entirely forthcoming with the nature of your particular objections to Obama. It was most certainly NOT (as you falsely claimed my “first” response and nor was it “SCREAMED” at you).

Get a grip. If you play that fast and loose with the facts with respect to the discussion on this thread, then how mendacious are you when it comes to your other assertions? That seems like a fair question to ask, no?

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 12:44 pm

However, I DON’T have that option, and I have already listed several reasons why I don’t like tax-and-spend big government messiahs in office.

If you’re in Canada, you don’t have to worry.

The problem is the tax cuts and big government the US has seen in the past few years.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 12:50 pm

Considering that government spending has gone off the rails during the Bush administration to the point where there seem to be no controls whatsoever anymore and there’s currently a $1 trillion bailout on the table, with possibly more “magic” money that will soon be pumped into the system in an effort to jump start the economy back to life, it seems more than little hilarious to trot out the “big goverment — tax n’ spend” shtick relative to Democrats. Quite aside from that the size of government has also ballooned under Bush (as it also has under Harper, it should be noted), so I think people need to start checking their preconceptions and hackneyed narratives at the door when it comes to this sort of thing.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 1:16 pm

RT, if you read through the above thread, the first thing I wrote in this thread was to show how Drunken Joe Biden wasn’t being truthful in his interview when he claimed that “we haven’t paid ACORN one single penny”; this is demonstrably a LIE, and you followed up with a question asking what sort of “problem” I had with Obama. I gave you SEVERAL reasons why I would prefer to not see Obama (or any OTHER tax-and-spend weasel who believes that any problem can be solved simply by stealing citizens’ money to throw at that problem; yes, this includes a number of so-called “conservatives”). After giving several OTHER reasons why I would prefer not to see this BS artist with a long list of shady associates in power, you came back with “Get used to the idea that you’re going to have a (half) black president for the next four years.” Once again, what is that, if it’s not a claim that I am a racist? I note that no-one has even BOTHERED to address any of the questions I’ve asked or issues that I’ve raised re. Obama’s past, his friends, or his plans. Once again, the Obama playbook is followed.

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 1:35 pm

SDC — Allow me to reiterate how extremely tiresome you are. I say that by way of explanation as to why I simply “tune out” a lot of what you say. Sorry, but I don’t hang on your every word and may very well have just skipped right over some of your comments.

Why do you refer to Biden as “Drunken Joe Biden”? See, that’s an example of something that would just send me into “tune-out” mode. As soon as I see that I just want to stop listening to (reading) anything you might have to say.

If you can’t discuss things in a civil and reasonably respectful way, don’t expect to get much of a hearing for whatever your opinions may be.

Clearly, you seem to think that taxation is a form of “theft” (or “stealing” as you put it) and that Democrats/liberals are simply “weasels” looking to pick your precious pockets for their own harebrained schemes, etc.

All of this stuff about ACORN… well, it’s a matter of dispute, isn’t it? There are measures in place to check abuses in the system and there are abuses and “irregularities” from both sides, so maybe it’s a bit of a wash.

I just see this as an entirely useless debate/argument over something where almost every fact is in dispute and can be challenged.

If it’s a HUGE issue for you, then I suggest you fire up a blog dedicated to this matter where you can rail on ad nausea about it… forever.

If you’ve got problems with Obama’s policies and prescriptions regarding the economy, wars, role of government, etc. those are different issues that can be discussed on other threads as these things arise.

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 3:08 pm

“I just see this as an entirely useless debate/argument over something where almost every fact is in dispute and can be challenged.”

and that’s how sdc sees it. that’s his mo.

“If it’s a HUGE issue for you”

he couldn’t care less about any of these issues. what he’s after is your continued participation in his troll.

KEvron

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 4:33 pm

No, I’d be happy with some straightforward answers to the straightforward issues that I’ve raised; if you don’t think that it’s a big issue that the potential next POTUSA is chummy pals with a long list of assorted scumbags, you’re free to say so, but you’re not even honest enough to say that. Instead, it’s either “Move along, there’s nothing to see here”, or “You must be a racist; yeah, a racist, that’s the ticket”. Ditto for ACORN’s role in this mess.
And yes, RT, Biden is a well-known boozehound, not quite on the order of Kennedy, but close. That also doesn’t change the fact that he LIED in the very interview that you headed this thread up with, since it is now a matter of public record that Obama paid ACORN more than $800,000. But, rather than try to explain that, you take issue with ME pointing out that this souse drinks like a goldfish.
Finally, taxation IS a form of theft, and it’s theft backed up by the state with force when the state feels it isn’t getting its cut; now, when anyone else does that (for example, the Mob in selling protection), that is known as “robbery”. I’m perfectly happy to pay a certain amount of tax for services and benefits that we all use and derive benefit from, but the Left seems to take that as justification for “Whoopee! Now that we’ve got our hands on all this money, what can we spend it on? It doesn’t matter if we run out, because we can just raise taxes some more.”
Finally, I have probably been the single most civil and reasonable person posting in this thread; others (yourself included) seem so shocked that someone might not want to fall into lockstep behind the Great Leader, that it simply doesn’t compute for you, and your knee-jerk reaction is “Oh. Anyone that would ask these questions is obviously a racist.” Well, I’m sorry to disappoint you, RT, but I’m not a racist. I’m also not an “right-wing extremist”, by any stretch of the imagination. I found an interesting test at http://www.politicalcompass.org/test , and do you know where I placed, after answering their questions honestly and truthfully to the best of my abilities? I placed at 0.0 (DEAD IN THE MIDDLE) on economic issues, and at 0.92 on their libertarian/authoritarian scale (about one square towards the libertarian end of the scale). In other words, I am about as “moderate” politically as it is humanly possible to be, and if your little coffee clatch here wants to pretend that I am some sort of right-wing ogre that wants to build a soylent green factory to process the poor, then that tells me exactly how far LEFT you people have become.

Blues Clair
October 27, 2008 at 5:10 pm

racist

Bowler
October 27, 2008 at 6:00 pm

I’ve got a headache from SDC’s habit of resorting to all-caps when he REALLY WANTS YOU TO UNDERSTAND HIM.

Why is he ashamed to be a conservative? Moderation is for tax-loving liberals on THE LEFT.

Maybe he doesn’t want to associate with conservatives because Todd Palin pals around with secessionists.

We’ll stop stealing your taxes if you stop using roads, hospitals, 911, sending your kids to school and sending our troops to Afghanistan.

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:01 pm

ever met a rightwing extremist that wasn’t?

KEvron

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:07 pm

“I am about as “moderate” politically as it is humanly possible to be”

ladys and gentlemen, the world’s first “moderate extrwemist”. if he were anymore moderate, he be inhuman.

the lukewarm milk i had before bed last night was the lukewarmest i’d ever had. couldn’t have been any lukewarmer….

KEvron

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:09 pm

i hates me jews, but i loves me some coloreds; puts me right in the middle. i couldn’t be anymore in the middle….

KEvron

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:12 pm

iv’e seen that claim to “extreme moderacy” before. on this blog, i think. kewpie doll to whoever finds it.

KEvron

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:14 pm

“extrwemist”?! cue the barney frank cracks….

KEvron

Red Canuck
October 27, 2008 at 6:23 pm

Kev – I said way back we should have just agreed with him… (or perhaps “agweed” with him)

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:26 pm

i did.

KEvrwon

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 6:39 pm

SDC — I’m not going to waste any more time on your groan-inducing litany of grievances, but just for the record, I’ll address this latest set of bellicose whining:

No, I’d be happy with some straightforward answers to the straightforward issues that I’ve raised; if you don’t think that it’s a big issue that the potential next POTUSA is chummy pals with a long list of assorted scumbags, you’re free to say so, but you’re not even honest enough to say that.

I have no problem with Obama’s past associations. As I’ve said before, I think these are irrelevant distractions of no concern whatsoever. I don’t have a problem with William Ayers, or even Jeremiah Wright — in fact, I happen to agree with the reverend on a good many issues and find him much less objectionable than many of the “pastors” and religious nutcases that have endorsed John McCain in the past. Take it or leave it — I don’t care.

Instead, it’s either “Move along, there’s nothing to see here”, or “You must be a racist; yeah, a racist, that’s the ticket”. Ditto for ACORN’s role in this mess.

I never said that — it’s a fabricated “quote” proving nothing more than that you’re a mendacious LIAR and relentless TROLL.

And yes, RT, Biden is a well-known boozehound, not quite on the order of Kennedy, but close.

I was not aware of this and… again, I don’t care. If this is a problem for you, then I guess you would have also determined Sir Winston Churchill to be unfit to lead (also a notorious “boozehound”), along with many, many, many others of great repute. Spare me your scolding, puritanical opprobrium.

That also doesn’t change the fact that he LIED in the very interview that you headed this thread up with, since it is now a matter of public record that Obama paid ACORN more than $800,000. But, rather than try to explain that, you take issue with ME pointing out that this souse drinks like a goldfish.

You seem to have some serious “issues” about this drinking thing. Where are you getting your info from WorldNut Daily? Newsmax? Give me a break. Did the Obama campaign pay ACORN to register voters for Obama… or just register voters, period? To weave through this to find the “truth” would involve finely parsing what Biden actually said (in order to determine whether it’s a “LIE” and comparing that to the actual disbursement to ACORN and its intended purpose. Sorry, too much work for me. Especially given I don’t really care.

Finally, taxation IS a form of theft, and it’s theft backed up by the state with force when the state feels it isn’t getting its cut; now, when anyone else does that (for example, the Mob in selling protection), that is known as “robbery”.

Have fun building your own roads and sewers. While you’re at it, go out and get your own destroyer and a few airplanes… and some ferries and inter-city trains and a bus network. Oh, and don’t forget to pool some of you hard earned money and buy a hydro-electric dam or two.

I’m perfectly happy to pay a certain amount of tax for services and benefits that we all use and derive benefit from, but the Left seems to take that as justification for “Whoopee! Now that we’ve got our hands on all this money, what can we spend it on? It doesn’t matter if we run out, because we can just raise taxes some more.”

Sorry, but I simply don’t subscribe to your “bad faith” argument regarding “the Left” and its wanton desire to get their hands on YOUR precious money and blow it on frivolous expenditures. Of course there’s some waste and excess in government spending, but that’s not a necessarily partisan/ideological thing. The explanations of how/why that happens are complex and likely wasted attempting to outline all of them here.

Finally, I have probably been the single most civil and reasonable person posting in this thread; others (yourself included) seem so shocked that someone might not want to fall into lockstep behind the Great Leader, that it simply doesn’t compute for you, and your knee-jerk reaction is “Oh. Anyone that would ask these questions is obviously a racist.”

You seem to be harping on this point to the such a ridiculous extent where I’m prompted to observe that methinks thou doth protest too much. I made one reference to you being bigoted, but you hammer on about this contention that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically be accusing you of being a racist. Sorry, but it’s simply not true. Unless you are… and if so, as I said, that’s your problem.

I don’t think there’s anything especially “civil” in the largely baseless accusations you’ve been making, the vile smears, character assassination (but done politely with a smile!) and general muckraking that you’ve engaged in for no entirely clear purpose.

Well, I’m sorry to disappoint you, RT, but I’m not a racist. I’m also not an “right-wing extremist”, by any stretch of the imagination.

Goody for you. And there’s another made up “quote” by the way. I never called you: a) a racist; or b) a “right-wing extremist” — these are epithets of your own invention that you seem bound and determined to imagine were leveled at you. Do you enjoy pretending to be a victim?

Also goody for you that you placed dead in the middle on the political compass test. I took that a long time ago and scored left/libertarian (basically where Denis Kucinich and Ghandi were situated). But then, I’ve never much cared for labels or being pigeon-holed like that.

You may want to pass yourself off as a “moderate” but your rhetoric is anything but. Sorry… to me you come across as less than honest and forthright based on all kinds of cues and statements that don’t quite add up. But carry on. I really don’t care. You’re entitled to your opinion… just don’t expect me to waste any further time responding to them. Knock yourself out.

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:45 pm

“You seem to be harping on this point to the such a ridiculous extent where I’m prompted to observe that methinks thou doth protest too much.”

it’s utter bullshit, he wants you to know that it’s utter bullshit, and he enjoys that there is no way for you to prove that it is utter bullshit.

am i the only one who gets how a troll works?

KEvron

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 6:53 pm

That also doesn’t change the fact that he LIED in the very interview that you headed this thread up with, since it is now a matter of public record that Obama paid ACORN more than $800,000.

They didn’t give the money to ACORN, but Citizen Services, who then contracted out to ACORN staffers.

Interesting that most of the things you find if you google ACORN, Obama, and Donation are right-wing bloggers.

Finally, taxation IS a form of theft, and it’s theft backed up by the state with force when the state feels it isn’t getting its cut; now, when anyone else does that (for example, the Mob in selling protection), that is known as “robbery”. I’m perfectly happy to pay a certain amount of tax for services and benefits that we all use and derive benefit from, but the Left seems to take that as justification for “Whoopee! Now that we’ve got our hands on all this money, what can we spend it on? It doesn’t matter if we run out, because we can just raise taxes some more.”

Personal benefit… that’s an interesting way to define participation in a society.

Roads, police forces, street lamps… when the tax rate was lowered in Ontario, there were cuts to “arts” and “welfare” (things that don’t directly benefit ourselves, but make the overall society more attractive and less dangerous… in some countries, it’s common for the poor to mitigate their situation through kidnappings; there was even cases of hair theft in Brazil), but there were also cuts to basic things as hospitals (I remember the commercials behind this decision — we don’t need empty bed… in reality, you don’t want overcrowded hospitals, water treatment, bio-hazard labs (after Walkerton and before SARS), nurses…. When they talk about tax cuts, they rarely mention this possibility.

“It is not till it is discovered that high individual incomes will not purchase the mass of mankind immunity from cholera, typhus, and ignorance, still less secure them the positive advantages of educational opportunities and economic security, that slowly and reluctantly, amid prophecies of moreal degeneration and economic disaster, society begins to make collective provision for needs no ordinary individual, even if he works overtime all his life, can provide himself.
- R. H. Tawney .

philosoraptor
October 27, 2008 at 6:54 pm

I think SDC is a waste of time, but I have to add to your comment Red:

If this is a problem for you, then I guess you would have also determined Sir Winston Churchill to be unfit to lead (also a notorious “boozehound”), along with many, many, many others of great repute.

Including drunken John A. and D’Arcy McGee. Why do you hate Canada?

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 6:59 pm

huh. i am the only one….

KEvron

sharonapple88
October 27, 2008 at 7:00 pm

am i the only one who gets how a troll works?

No… I know, ignore him and he’ll go away. (Sigh)

toujoursdan
October 27, 2008 at 7:02 pm

Ok Red: What is it about your blog that brings out the wingnuts?

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 7:03 pm

Dave — D’oh! Sir John A…. indeed. My bad for not including him in that little broadside.

What an odd line of attack. And, I might add, “SDC” could not possibly have found someone more altogether disinclined to subscribe to it than me.

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 7:11 pm

“I know, ignore him and he’ll go away.”

i hardly ever ingore them; i just don’t play their game. my own is more fun.

KEvron

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 7:14 pm

Dan — Rather mysterious, isn’t it? I experience much the same in “real” life and always have.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Thanks for proving my point, Blues Clair.

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 7:56 pm

“What is it about your blog that brings out the wingnuts?”

and from both wings, no less. our troll is as likely a lefty as the other. the emphasis on extreme moderacy could be meant to mock red tory’s redtoryism. in light of the recent pre-election flack on this blog, there strong likelyhood that this troll could be some disgruntled dion supporter.

KEvron

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Bowler, do I have another option to make myself understood when it’s obvious that the people responding to me haven’t even bothered to read my previous posts? Also, don’t kid yourself that only “progressives” (and I won’t bother going into the bogus co-opting of the word that the left has pulled off) can claim to be “moderate”. I’m happy to be a conservative, but I’m no happier with the idea of a hard right-winger in power than I am with the idea of a hard left-winger; eventually, they BOTH rob you blind and steal your freedoms.
Roads, fire and police services, hospitals, schools, and similar services are EXACTLY the reason I’m happy to pay a reasonable amount of tax (even though it goes against the original promise that “this is just to pay off the war, and then we’ll stop, honest”). I am NOT interested in paying taxes just so bureaucrats can shuffle paper on the numbers of shark attacks in Saskatchewan, or to pay dilettantes to produce films about their chosen sexual proclivities, or so politicians can shovel that money out the back door to their pals (as with Chretien’s and McGuinty’s various and sundry “redistribution” schemes). So why is it that whenever the possibility is raised of leaving money in the pockets of those Canadians that EARNED it, the natural tendency of leftists is to threaten to shut down hospitals, or other necessary services, instead of cutting this other useless garbage? I have to follow a budget, and that budget sometimes means choosing necessities over niceties.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 8:12 pm

KEvron, I could return your posts in the spirit in which they were intended and simply call you an ass, but I’m sort of curious as to what makes you think that I’m an “extremist”? Have you considered the possibility (likelihood? certainty?) that you’re so far to the left of moderate that you’re simply imagining right-wingers in the wallpaper?
As far as Jews go, I don’t have any particular problem with them, even though I’m an atheist and don’t see any logic in praying to an imaginary invisible man in the sky; it’s too bad that many of your fellow “liberals” and “progressives” don’t see things the same way. Wasn’t it at the same convention that crowned Dion that there was a very strong anti-Semetic undercurrent, complete with flyers (“Don’t vote for Rae because his wife’s a Jew”), and Kennedy had to throw his support where he did because his Arab supporters would have deserted him otherwise? As for “racist”, I’ve already put that one to bed, and you can scroll up again and read it if you’d like.

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 8:13 pm

you are right.

KEvron

Blues Clair
October 27, 2008 at 8:18 pm

I was reminded of this cartoon.

via: Rusty Idols

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 8:20 pm

“As far as Jews go”

just how far do they go, and do they have a sister?

KEvron

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 8:53 pm

RT, now that you’ve abandoned your original premise for this post, by saying that you simply don’t CARE about any of these issues, and that (earlier) you would be happy to support anyone other than Bush (who can’t run again anyway), you’ve shown yourself to be nothing more than the very sort of partisan hack you claim to despise. No great surprise.
Now, what part of “I’m perfectly happy to pay a certain amount of tax for services and benefits that we all use and derive benefit from” didn’t you understand? There is a vast difference between these things and the sort of garbage that Liberals/liberals are wont to waste huge amounts of public money on, simply because they think they can spend our money and run our lives for us better than we can.
Finally, I’d really appreciate it if you could give me some examples of the supposed “largely baseless accusations, vile smears, character assassination, or general muckraking” that you now claim that I’ve done; I can point to a number of such posts directed at me, but everything that I’ve posted is freely available to anyone with an internet connection and Google. When pushed, Obama will admit to knowing domestic terrorist Ayers, but he then claims that he didn’t really know him very well, and certainly wasn’t “friends” with him. If that’s the case, why did Obama launch his political career around Ayers’ kitchen table, at a party thrown by Ayers for Obama? How reasonable is it for Obama to claim that he didn’t know about Wright’s racist sermons, when he attended Wright’s church for 20 years, and everyone else who attended that church certainly knew about them? He’s lying for a reason, and even if that reason is only to try to disassociate himself from such a wacko now, it shows he was happy with those sermons before they became a potential liability. This pattern shows up again and again with Obama, where he tries to erase his past before people can examine it; given the sort of attention that is focused on OTHER candidates, don’t you find it the least bit interesting that the MSM have studiously tried to AVOID looking at his past? If they can parachute 30-odd reporters into Alaska to try to dig up dirt on Palin, why don’t they do anything similar in Obama’s case?
And yes, you DID imply that I was both a 1) racist, and 2) a right-wing extremist, and it’s too late for you to try to claim otherwise; you personally claimed that I was “bigoted”, and “right-wing”, neither of which you have offered any evidence for.

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm

Sharonapple, ACORN and “Citizen Services” are joined at the hip, to the point where they share offices in the same building, and Obama paid that money knowing exactly where it would go (as disclosed in the campaign finance reports that he had to retro-actively submit).
Once again, why is it that leftists immediately threaten to close down hospitals if they feel their lip-lock on the public teat is threatened? I, and every other conservative I know, has nothing against paying for a reasonable amount of public services, but if someone wants to take a dump in a fishbowl and call it “art”, he should have to do it on his own dime, instead of ours. If enough people share his definition of “art”, he can even charge admission and grow the economy

SDC
October 27, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Good one, KEvron Do you have a stage act too, or do you just share your wit online?

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 9:12 pm

you are right….

KEvron

KEvron
October 27, 2008 at 9:17 pm

and for what it’s worth, i scored 0.00 on the scale, which is one decimal place more than sdc.

KEvron, extremely moderate

redtory
October 27, 2008 at 10:38 pm

Shorter SDC: Blah, blah, blah.

SDC
October 28, 2008 at 6:42 am

Shorter RT: “I’m not interested in actually debating the issues, so long as I get to stroke my hate for anyone to the right of me.”

redtory
October 28, 2008 at 9:18 am

Nice try, but there are plenty of people “to the right of me” that I quite enjoy and respect. They only thing that I “hate” is how obdurate and tiresome you are. There’s really nothing to discuss here. You, on the other hand, seem to just want to keep flogging a dead horse.

	redtory on The “Unbreakable” Toyota …
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	redtory on Talking to Ian Hislop
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Red Tory v.3.0

October 26, 2008...6:22 am

Astounding…

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