Like the proverbial road to Hell, lavishly paved with the best of intentions, the Liberal platform is full of much the same: $620 million for social housing; a $60 million fund to help Canadian Forces members cope with post-traumatic stress; $500 million in new foreign aid and a $400 million for a Canada Water Fund to monitor the quantity and quality of Canadian water and cleaning up waterways, including “hot spots” in the Great Lakes. Oh, and the Liberals are also promising to ban the bulk water exports, and… blah, blah, blah…
Earth to Liberals — nobody is listening and no one cares. Sorry to break that unfortunate bit of news to you, but seriously… look around. Your mileage may vary, but it seems fairly apparent that there just isn’t much interest in this election. From the outset, this was a referendum about nothing — called for no reason, with no terribly compelling issues on the table — sweater-vest guy v. geeky professor guy. Well, snore me a river.
So, what’s in the fabulous new Liberal platform? Altogether, there’s $55 billion in promises (many water-related, it seems) over the next four years — this presumably shouldn’t be confused however with the touted $70 billion promised to infrastructure over ten years that was announced last week. Or perhaps the $15.1 billion that’s now being promised was part of the $70 billion that’s… now included in the $55 billion. Huh? Yes, we’re all confused now. But it’s all costed! Hey, tell us a little bit more about that whole “Green Shift” thingee and how the whole thing will be “revenue neutral” would you… Or not.
By the way, would it have killed you to have released a video or something to go along with the roll-out of your platform? I mean, really… when your promising BILLIONS of dollars, a little bone in the form of something online supporting your public announcement might have made it seem a little more, oh, I don’t know… “real” — rather than, as it does, just appearing to be an empty load of desperate you-know-what that was made up last Wednesday.
111 Comments
September 22, 2008 at 11:53 am
Wow, do I ever disagree with you.
It’s a solid plan that pretty clearly lays out how Dion wants to transition the economy.
Oh, and unlike the NDP and the other guy’s, we actually have a plan.
Sorry, that’s not fair, Steve wants to jail 14 year olds for life.
On one thing we agree. Interest is not yet there but I think moving forward it will increase and we’ve put forward a pretty clear vision of the country and one that is far more familiar to Canadians than what the Conservatives are suggesting.
Of course, Canada is all about seeing things differently.
September 22, 2008 at 11:56 am
Wow, do I ever disagree with you.
I’m not sure if I do, since there’s nothing in this post but histrionics.
How many of these are in the hopper for today?
September 22, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Sir,
the plan is actually quite prudent and measured. Unlike the NDP saying they would repeal the corporate income tax reductions or re-negotiate NAFTA or throw money at everything. The liberal plan is quite realistic. This election is going to also come down to “trust” and not only “leadership” and the trust factor applies to the economy as well as the environement. With the latest NANOS poll Cons 35% Libs 30% and NDP at 22%..you have to think the cons have to be thinking what they need to do to get into majority territory…personally the collaspe of the bloc is welcome news!!!!
September 22, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Ti-Guy — What a cynic you are. Histrionics… yeah, I guess. Perhaps you’re seeing something in this plan that I’m missing.
September 22, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Be careful, RT, the truth normally sends most Liberals into a fit of rage that only endless name-calling seems to cure. A wonderful post..one I myself would post if I were on your side of the spectrum.
September 22, 2008 at 12:08 pm
KNB — I saw that. Nice distraction, wasn’t it? Guaranteed that’s what will be talked about on the news and not the Libs’ platform.
Solid, prudent… Maybe. The NDP has a plan too. So do the Greens — a rather good one, I might add. Many, many plans…
You’re missing the point however. This was rolled out too late, in a haphazard way (Jeff mentioned earlier that the the Libs here in BC have introduced just one third of their “made in BC” plan with the rest to be dribbled out over the next week of so… not that anyone will notice).
It’s all well and good to talk about policy, prudent costing, etc. but it seems the Liberals have learned NOTHING from the experience of our Democratic friends south of the border in terms of being “framed” and appreciating how to leverage the narratives of the press to their advantage.
September 22, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Like this for example. And if there weren’t a federal election on, I’d be hitting him from all sides for Mr. Tory’s recent treatment of an outspoken MP who told him to do the right thing and resign.
September 22, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Wow you obviously don’t get it. Out of all that’s happening in our world there is only one party leader in Canada who is actually willing to try and tackle the challenge, and that is Dion. Harper panders and brings Canada closer and closer to the failing strategies of the U.S. every day. This platform can change Canada and bring us to the fore-front of world progress. Otherwise we will be one of the biggest obstructions to global solutions along with the U.S.
P.S. read Ken Dryden’s speech from Sept 21 on my blog.
September 22, 2008 at 12:15 pm
What a bunch of blowhards. Yes, what “vision” it must take to spend billions of dollars. How duped you people are.
September 22, 2008 at 12:16 pm
What a cynic you are. Histrionics… yeah, I guess. Perhaps you’re seeing something in this plan that I’m missing.
You’re right. Obviously, I’m missing the truth prominent, well-respected analysts like Trusty Tory have seen almost immediately.
I haven’t read the damn thing. I’m waiting for people who are paid to do that kind of work to get around to it.
September 22, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I take your point RT. You’re referring to strategy more than the plan itself and maybe you’re right, but I think it remains to be seen.
Baird, yes, Baird will be responding to the plan at 3:30 eastern.
Multi culture guy Kenney responds to the Lib environment plan and the Environment Minister responds to an economic plan.
Hell of team they have there!
September 22, 2008 at 12:20 pm
My, my Red…
judging by today’s posts you must have gotten up from the “wrong” (or should I say “right”) side of the bed this morning.
A cost-ed platform is a hygiene issue – lose big points if you are dirty but no one notices when you are clean … done.
now about that bad-meat stuff….
September 22, 2008 at 12:21 pm
What a bunch of blowhards. Yes, what “vision” it must take to spend billions of dollars. How duped you people are.
This from the most ignorant, un-self-aware rube I can think of, whose undying support for the most spendthrift government in Canadian history is total and resolute.
Honestly…some people’s children…
September 22, 2008 at 12:23 pm
TT Care to compare spending records?
September 22, 2008 at 12:24 pm
TT can’t even remember what he did this morning, let alone attempt a longitudinal study.
September 22, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Hell of team they have there!
In the Brownie sense.
(“Brownie, you’re doing one hell of a job.” Bush, 2005)
September 22, 2008 at 12:31 pm
What did you expect from the little professor, who spent a few terms in Ottawa?
This guy has never worked in the real world . . . just another educator who has stepped out of the hallowed halls to tell us surfs how to live our lives.
Caught Dion on the tube the other day telling us that “Everything in Canada was Subsidized”, as he was defending the cbc . . .
Is that why so many businesses have moved out of Canada in the last 20 years.
Liberal promises are usually a no-cost item . . . . they never keep them!!!
September 22, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Speaking of truth and blowhards. Below, my favorite post of this campaign so far;
Trusted Tory: I’d Vote Conservative Anyway
“Let’s pretend for a moment that I’m not a partisan Conservative supporter. Let’s pretend I’m Joe Citizen from Barrie who didn’t have a blog, wasn’t a member of the Blogging Tories, or wasn’t a political junkie.
I’d vote Conservative anyway.”
RT you got the blues it seems. Then again, the Liberals are pretty depressing. Lucky though, there is a leader that will inspire many disgrunted Liberals to get up and vote… Stephen Harper.
September 22, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Yes, what “vision” it must take to spend billions of dollars. How duped you people are.
Duped? Here’s what Andrew Coyne noted:
“It’s true. The $200-billion Mr. Flaherty proposes to spend this year works out to about $5,800 for every citizen. Even after you adjust for increases in prices and population, that’s more than the Martin government spent at its frenetic worst, when it was almost shovelling the stuff out the door. It is more than the Mulroney government spent in its last days, when it was past caring. It is more than the Trudeau government spent in the depths of the early 1980s recession. All of these past benchmarks of over-the-top, out-of-control spending must now be retired. Jim Flaherty has outdone them all. ”
Ah, Conservative fiscal responsibility at its best.
September 22, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Look, just to be clear… I’m sure the Liberal platform is a wonderful, shiny thing with great, lustrous, billion dollar beams of enlightenment fanning out in all directions across the socioeconomic spectrum, spreading the promise of much joy and/or desperately needed relief to every dark, previously neglected corner of our great land… and so on… but so what? You can promise the sun, the moon and the stars and it won’t amount to a hill of beans if you can’t get elected.
I’m sorry to be the proverbial Debbie Downer here, but we need to talk “electability” and you can not — not matter even how much of a partisan Liberal you may be — look at one of those execrable “Campaign Daily Diary” videos and tell me honestly, really truly… honestly that Stéphane Dion, for all his good, estimable, worthy, earnest characteristics can be elected.
September 22, 2008 at 12:40 pm
I’m starting to feel that way about all the leaders (except for Elizabeth May). What a mess we have this year.
September 22, 2008 at 12:49 pm
but we need to talk “electability”
Well, by your logic, you should be full behind Stephen Harper, right?
What exactly do you want? A more telegenic Dion?
If the rest of Canada weren’t forced (by simultaneous translation, which I can’t stand) to be exposed exclusively to Dion’s awkwardness in English (which shouldn’t matter in the least in this country; Harper’s French is shit and the rest of his caucus is worse, in either official language) you’d probably have a different impression. Maybe; I don’t really know, since I don’t rely on video for information that can only be communicated effectively in another medium.
September 22, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Oldstool — You know it’s sad that “conservative” supporters run down Dion for being a former professor. I guess it just shows how little you value education and how readily you subscribe to the total dumbing-down of our society. Well, I hope that all works out for you because that kind of pig ignorance going to run this country and our economy into the ditch. Get a clue, moron. Do you have any idea how many thousands of engineers and maths students are graduating in India and China right now? All just waiting to throw your fat, lazy backside out on the street… You know, Dion actually realizes what’s at stake here and that’s an investment in the future. It’s just unfortunate that the Liberals don’t have a clue how to effectively sell that idea to the Canadian public. So, we’ll get four more years of fat Steve peddling his lies and bullshit so that moronic asswipes like you can continue on business as usual.
September 22, 2008 at 12:53 pm
“Let’s pretend for a moment that I’m not a partisan Conservative supporter. Let’s pretend I’m Joe Citizen from Barrie who didn’t have a blog, wasn’t a member of the Blogging Tories, or wasn’t a political junkie.
I’d vote Conservative anyway.”
And with that, L.H. Puttgrass signed off and headed for the tub.
September 22, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Not based on those vid’s, no, but that is not generally how he handles himself in other settings.
Compared to Harper who offers little and does it with a dose of nasty, I’m not giving up.
I think you may be underestimating how people react to politicians in the end.
If you put up all the vid of Harper’s comments in QP and elsewhere, do you think the masses would be running to elect the guy?
I know you see him differently than I do, but having met him, I can tell you of all the options we have, he’s the one I want running the country right now.
The biggest thing for me at the moment is that the con’s musn’t be allow to perpetuate the lie that they are the sound economic stewards of the land. It’s a statement created out of whole cloth and this might go some way to disputing that, or at least putting it on the table for discussion.
September 22, 2008 at 12:59 pm
It’s just unfortunate that the Liberals don’t have a clue how to effectively sell that idea to the Canadian public.
And how do you sell that to people like Trusty and Noschool? The Democrats have been dealing with this type of thing in the US for 8 years now, with millions and millions of dollars, and it’s gotten them barely nowhere.
September 22, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Well, by your logic, you should be full behind Stephen Harper, right?
It’s sort of funny what millions of dollars can do for one’s image. (Funny in an absolutely tragic sense.)
September 22, 2008 at 1:03 pm
RT You are Sooooooooo full of yourself.
It is all about You …and you .. and You..
Bluecollar Harper loves YOU!!
marta
September 22, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Ti-Guy — Yes, a more “telegenic” Dion would be nice. I realize he’s a different guy altogether en Français, but he is what he is as communicated to us poor, benighted Anglos in the ROC, okay? This is a problem many of us have struggled with over the last couple of years. I’m well-disposed to Dion from the outset and am more than happy to grant charitable latitude in that respect, especially given that I lack fluency in our other official language, but most are not… so again, it’s a “reality check” moment.
Personally, I liked it better before he tried “improving” his English. It was more charming then… a little fluidly incomprehensible, if you will… now it just seems brutal, painfully awkward and mangled.
September 22, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Marta — Don’t you have a “meet-up” with your local anti-war, socialist collective over there on the mainland to get to?
September 22, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Red, I despise the Conservatives, but I sadly have to agree with you.
This election is sadly turning into a farce – the Libs release their platform and the Cons knock it off the dial with their crazed and outrageous “lock up 14 year olds for life” bullshit.
And Dion fumbles on.
Trusty Tory,
Pleas compare spending records. The CPC has increased spending by 7.8% this year alone. It was on the order of 5% last year. All while cutting taxes and reducing revenue. Now what does that spell? D-E-F-I-C-T.
The CPC is a lot of things, but it sure ain’t “fiscally conservative”. The Liberals were way more fiscally conservative than this government ever was .
(And Red, why the Liberals aren’t ramming that down everyone’s throat at every opportunity is beyond me…).
And TT, what about comparing platforms? Oh yes, that’s right, the CPC isn’t releasing its platform until AFTER the election.
Sweet Jesus on a Popsicle stick,that has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. And yet its working because the Liberals under Dion are blowing it.
Now maybe I’m cynical, but part of me want to see the Cons win just so that apparatchiks like Cherniak are eliminated in the purge of the Dionistas when it’s over.
September 22, 2008 at 1:23 pm
This is a problem many of us have struggled with over the last couple of years.
If that’s the problem people struggle with, then they get the government they deserve.
I’m done arguing about style over substance and form over function. I realise, with people wallowing in just about the silliest culture on Earth right now, it’s probably futile.
September 22, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Now maybe I’m cynical, but part of me want to see the Cons win just so that apparatchiks like Cherniak are eliminated in the purge of the Dionistas when it’s over.
You are cynical. You’re part of the problem, not the solution.
September 22, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Ti-Guy — And how do you sell that to people like Trusty and Noschool?
Well, indeed… that’s the question. Or at least it would be, if it wasn’t.
TT & “Noschool” (nice) and that ilk aren’t the target demographic here and they’re of no concern whatsoever in my thinking on this matter. People of that sort will vote for a toaster, a rock, bag of sawdust or the proverbial “yellow dog” if it’s marked “Conservative” and isn’t a “Liberal” (because they hates thems liberals)
No, it’s the mainstream, average voter that I’m more concerned with here, and I just don’t believe that they’re really seized with this election, or at all concerned about it…
Harper has done a very good job at papering over his flaws and conning people into thinking he’s a “straight up guy” as portrayed in the commercials.
We’re so behind the curve here… this just seems like a boring re-play of US 2004 in many respects.
September 22, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Ti-Guy — If that’s the problem people struggle with, then they get the government they deserve.
Again, I have to disagree with you. This is no small point of superficial “style” and to cast it in that light, seems to miss the point. If a politician is actually difficult to listen to on a visceral level… well, that’s a problem. You can loftily say that it doesn’t matter, but when it comes to retail politics, it does. And if you want to get votes… it’s about sales and marketing. Sorry — I know it sucks, but that’s the way it is. Good luck trying to flog a problematic concept like the “Green Shift” when you keep putting the wrong emPHAsis on the wrong syLLAble.
September 22, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I just heard part of the response by Baird and Cannon.
Completely disingenuous, which comes as no surprise, but they poked no holes in it, they just lied.
That tells me the plan is solid and if we had some third parties in this country that had some courage and would speak out to the platforms, it would go a long way to actually showing the Con lies for what they are.
September 22, 2008 at 1:58 pm
You want a cost comparison? Sure. But I’ll borrow from a blogger from my place instead of re-typing the whole thing.
“But hey, if you are such a stickler for figures, here is March 2005:
Highlights
March 2005
There was a budgetary deficit of $9.5 billion in March 2005, a deterioration of $6.3 billion from the deficit of $3.2 billion recorded in March 2004. The deterioration is primarily attributable to the $7.2 billion in transfers related to the federal-provincial-territorial agreements on health care and equalization/Territorial Formula Financing (TFF). The legislative authorities for these transfers received Royal Assent in March.
April 2004 to March 2005
The budgetary surplus is estimated at $9.8 billion for the April 2004 to March 2005 period, up $1.0 billion from the surplus reported in the same period last year.
Program expenses were up $13.7 billion or 9.9 per cent in the April 2004 to March 2005 period, primarily due to higher transfer payments, reflecting the effects of the federal-provincial-territorial agreements on health care and equalization/TFF, which were expensed in March 2005. Public debt charges were down $1.5 billion or 4.2 per cent, reflecting the impact of a decline in the stock of interest-bearing debt, along with a decline in the average effective interest rate on that debt.
On a year-over-year basis, budgetary revenues were up $13.2 billion or 7.2 per cent in the April 2004 to March 2005 period compared to the same period in 2003–04. The higher revenues primarily reflect strong corporate income tax receipts. The underlying increase in corporate income tax revenues is nearly double the current estimated growth in corporate profits for 2004. Corporate income tax receipts over the April 2004 to March 2005 period are about $2 billion higher than anticipated at the time of the budget.
Now try and focus here:
Program expenses were up $13.7 billion or 9.9 per cent in the April 2004 to March 2005 period, primarily due to higher transfer payments, reflecting the effects of the federal-provincial-territorial agreements on health care and equalization/TFF, which were expensed in March 2005.
And this was provided by you:
The government’s own fiscal monitor released Friday showed that program spending during the first three months of the fiscal year (April – June) “swelled by an astounding 8.4%,” said John Williamson, president of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
See, I’m pretty sure increasing spending by 9.9% is a bigger gain than 8.4%. If you like I would be more than happy to provide other examples. Now I know your Lefty Retard math may differ from us normal Canadian’s, so please explain.
Now let’s try this again. I’ll slow it down for you.
How…..will…..Dion…..pay…for…….. his…….$8…….. billion
………in……campaign……….promises…..with…..no…..tax……increases……or…….spending………cuts???????????”
September 22, 2008 at 2:02 pm
What? Conservative spokesbots…. lie? Tell me it’s not so.
As much as I may agree with your position (which I do), that absurd logic doesn’t hold up. By the same token if the Liberals poke holes in the Conservative platform (do they even have one?) then it would demonstrate its solidity…
September 22, 2008 at 2:02 pm
He continues:
“Hey, while I’m here:
April 2007 to March 2008: budgetary surplus of $10.2 billion after cost of measures
For the April 2007 to March 2008 period, the budgetary surplus is estimated at $11.7 billion, down $1.2 billion from the $12.9-billion surplus reported in the same period of 2006–07. Budgetary revenues increased by $10.6 billion, or 4.6 per cent, driven by gains in income tax revenues and other revenues. The results to date reflect the impact of tax relief measures introduced in the October 2007 Economic Statement. These measures consist of the 1-percentage-point reduction in the goods and services tax (GST) rate effective January 1, 2008, and the reduction in the lowest personal income tax rate from 15.5 per cent to 15 per cent and the increase in the basic personal amount to $9,600, both retroactive to January 1, 2007. Program expenses were up $12.5 billion, or 6.8 per cent, due to higher transfer payments and operating expenses of departments and agencies. Public debt charges were down $0.6 billion, reflecting reductions in market debt.
Get that? 6.8% increase. And I’m assuming you know what quarterly and year end budget figures mean, right.
Here’s this:
Program expenses were up $13.7 billion or 9.9 per cent in the April 2004 to March 2005 period, primarily due to higher transfer payments, reflecting the effects of the federal-provincial-territorial agreements on health care and equalization/TFF, which were expensed in March 2005. Public debt charges were down $1.5 billion or 4.2 per cent, reflecting the impact of a decline in the stock of interest-bearing debt, along with a decline in the average effective interest rate on that debt.
6.8% or 9.9%. Which one is a bigger increase in spending….”
“…Hey, while were at it, let’s take a look at the Cretin years, 2002 in particular:
Program spending was up $1.9 billion, or 16.0 per cent, on a year-over-year basis.”
Good. Now that’s finished.
September 22, 2008 at 2:02 pm
KNB — What? Conservative spokesbots…. lie? Tell me it’s not so.
As much as I may agree with your position (which I do), that absurd logic doesn’t hold up. By the same token if the Liberals poke holes in the Conservative platform (do they even have one?) then it would demonstrate its solidity…
September 22, 2008 at 2:07 pm
TT — I think you make want to close tags there otherwise it just looks like you’re cutting and pasting and/or ranting with lot’s of wild……………. punctuation randomly thrown in for !!!! effect that I can then… $10.6 billion, or 4.6 per cent, driven by gains in income tax revenues and other revenues. The results to date reflect the impact of tax relief measures introduced in the October 2007 Economic Statement. These measures consist of the 1-percentage-point reduction in the goods and services tax (GST) rate effective January 1, 2008, and the reduction in the lowest personal income tax rate from 15.5 per cent to 15 per cent and the increase in the basic personal amount to $9,600, both retroactive to January 1, 2007. Program expenses were up $12.5 billion, or 6.8 per cent, due to higher transfer payments and operating expenses of departments and agencies. Public debt charges were down $0.6 billion… blah, blah, blah…. and everything just all kinds of melds together into a lot of rubbish about nothing.
September 22, 2008 at 2:13 pm
No. I did that on purpose. One of your oh-so-insightful-bloggers challenged me to a cost comparison. I did that. But instead of typing it myself I just cut and paste from the same argument being held at my place.
September 22, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Well, perhaps that speaks to the “style and substance” argument alluded to previously here. If something is presented as just a lot of inane blather (fact-filled though it may be!) then no one’s going to bother with it.
September 22, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Bother with it or not, he asked a question, I answered it. If it’s full of facts, and he stops paying attention, that’s his problem for being stupid enough to believe Dion’s “costing” of the plan. But I do get your point otherwise.
September 22, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I can “cut-n-paste” vast amounts of information and claim that I’ve “answered” a question. It’s not terribly informative, and some regard it as “trollish” behaviour. Maybe I’ll try it out at your place sometime. I’m sure that your readers will appreciate my “answers”… Maybe I’ll just lift stuff from whatever report I run across, or cherry-pick something from a pleasing third-party assessment and then dump it down with nothing more than a snarky little hiss before it. You’ll love it… and I bet your readers will love it too!
September 22, 2008 at 2:32 pm
If it pisses you off, delete it then. My apologies, oh powerful one.
September 22, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I’m sure you realize that my intentions were not malicious. I hope, anyway.
September 22, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Nanos still shows only a 5 point game today, RT. I wouldn’t be so pessimistic.
September 22, 2008 at 2:40 pm
If it pisses you off, delete it then. My apologies, oh powerful one.
Well, it would be nice not to see a thread clogged up with your idiotic blather, that’s for sure.
September 22, 2008 at 2:43 pm
So lets see TT, you ignore the other 7 years of balanced budgets and only compare the last year, under a minority Liberal government desperately trying to buy votes and stave off defeat by letting the NDP write part of the budget, with the previous 2.5 years of so-called “conservative rule”.
Excellent.
And what do you find? The so-called “fiscally conservative” CPC, grew spending only 1% less than a Liberal government beholden to the NDP for its very survival. Indeed the CPC spending was an 8.4% increase over and above that 9.9% you are bleating about. And not in an election year.
So at what point does does an increase in program spending become “fiscally conservative”? 8.5%, 8.9% or maybe 9.3%?
Your entire defense boils down to “our increase in spending was a percentage point less than the Liberals held hostage by the NDP so we are fiscally conservative .”
In other words, thank you so much for proving my point (and the point Andrew Coyne also made last spring), that the CPC are NOT fiscally conservative – they are just Liberals with different colour ties.
Oh and as for not paying attention, you might notice that I am not a Liberal nor do support the Liberals, nor any of their platform. But I guess if I call Conservatives on their bullshit, that automatically makes me ‘Liebrul’ eh?
Idiot.
September 22, 2008 at 2:44 pm
TT — I wasn’t suggesting that you were being malicious, just that I appreciate opinion supported by fact, not just info-dumps. Do I really need to wade through whatever it was that you posted and figure out what point you’re attempting to make is? Can’t you just cut to the bottom line and tell me? You know an executive summary…
The CTF numbers are remarkably selective and we could have a lot of fun with them if they were actually analyzed in depth themselves because there’s a lot of statistical legerdemain going on with them. Are they comparing apples to apples at all times? Or do they swap in some figures and compare them to other numbers to create false comparisons… program costs swapped with transfer payments, for example.
September 22, 2008 at 2:47 pm
First of all, I don’t use that stupid term. Second of all, the only idiot here is you..you know, the guy who can’t read the fact that the Chretien years were also spoken about. Get a grip, pal.
September 22, 2008 at 2:49 pm
And yes… there’s the all important factor of “context” to the numbers that Mike alludes to above.
September 22, 2008 at 2:51 pm
My comment was directed at Mike, by the way, but a Liberal blog is not where I will search for “context”, I’m afraid…
September 22, 2008 at 2:54 pm
TT — Oh, please… Stop that nonsense. If you actually paused a bi and engaged in the discussion, you’d find plenty of “context”… Don’t be so lazy. And sorry, but that’s what it is.
September 22, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Never the less TT, your entire arguement is that the CPC is ‘fiscally conservative’ because its increase in program spending (while cutting taxes) was about 1% lower than that of an election year Liberal minority being propped up by the NDP.
Apparently there’s a new definition of ‘fiscally conservative’ out there that I am unaware of. Silly me, I always thought that cuts in income (taxes) must also be accompanied by cuts in spending in order to prevent deficit. I was unaware that increases of 8.4% were good but increases of 9.9% were bad.
Must be the new math.
September 22, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Scott — Nanos still shows only a 5 point game today, RT. I wouldn’t be so pessimistic.
We’ll see. I’ve thrown my two cents in and will take a breather for a while from this. I’ve got other things to do for the next week or so and will come back to it. I’ve clearly got nothing positive to contribute to the Liberal effort at the moment but my “histrionics” and will only get exasperated if I persist in following it.
So, my intention is to focus on other eclectic stuff and work and then take a look back in on the “race” in the next week or so.
September 22, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Is it the right time for me to talk about the Canadian Taxpayer Federation’s report of the Harper government’s $8.8 million per day orgy of spending right before the election, or shall I wait until TT digs a little deeper?
Fiscally conservative my ass.
September 22, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Don’t worry, it’ll only be a few more weeks, and then you can throw the absent-minded professor and his Green Shaft under the bus….
September 22, 2008 at 3:07 pm
My comment was directed at Mike, by the way, but a Liberal blog is not where I will search for “context”, I’m afraid…
Like I’ve always said, I make snap judgements about people based on the stupidest things they’re willing to say.
And there’s no one more willing to say stupid things than grade 8 gra-du-ayte Trusty Tory.
September 22, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Don’t worry, it’ll only be a few more weeks, and then you can throw the absent-minded professor and his Green Shaft under the bus….
Oh look, BC-born, Ontario-resident Alberta separatist is back.
How’s the meth and/or crack today, SDC?
September 22, 2008 at 3:19 pm
“Don’t worry, it’ll only be a few more weeks, and then you can throw the absent-minded professor and his Green Shaft under the bus….”
Who is this “you”?
Ti-Guy, its high quality, cut-and-paste intellect like this that make me yearn for the days of Pete Rempel and Jeff….
September 22, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Mike — I think the situation with the $700 billion “bailout” (or by some other figures $1.8 trillion) have ruined any conception of “fiscal conservatism” in this present environment. I used to be appalled at the $556 billion cost of the U.S. war in Iraq, but that’s peanuts now.
As for us here… $22 billion for an utterly failed war in Afghanistan (now conveniently ignored even though Harper spent the last two year exploiting the hell out of it)… forgotten. Almost two billion dollars to corn-based biofuels that the government’s own studies show will do nothing for the environment, tens of millions of dollars wasted on military contracts that went up in a puff of smoke, half a TRILLION dollars for Harper’s military budget that nobody is talking about… and so on.
But who cares? Steven Harper has a sweater-vest and his fluffers like Giorno will run interference with the media to ensure that he’s insulated from harm and Kool-Aid® drinkers like TT will clap their online “thunder sticks” and chant “Harper, Harper, Harper, Harper…”
Fiscal accountability, and probity are regarded as quaint. Kind of like “thinking” or “nuance”…
September 22, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Exactly Red, why I am calling this election a farce.
September 22, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Well, that should save a lot of money – don’t educate your kids – they’ll get no respect and be called names. Lots of tax savings there.
So, blue collar work their asses off to educate their kids so that can have more than them and then resent people that are educated…..a little unbalanced in their thinking here.
By the way – being a professor is a real job – Harper hasn’t had a real job.
September 22, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Kool-Aid® drinkers like TT will clap their online “thunder sticks” and chant “Harper, Harper, Harper, Harper…”</i.
And just take a guess which ones will whine the loudest for hand-outs when their turn comes?
We’ve seen it all before.
September 22, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Ewps. Tag problem. Dang.
September 22, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Ti-Guy
Well, it would be nice not to see a thread clogged up with your idiotic blather, that’s for sure.
Hey Kettle!
September 22, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Mike — Life goes on. I’m not going to waste more time on this for now… I’ve already decided who I’ll be voting for — pretty much a foregone conclusion anyway (and not because of partisan reasons) — so it’s of little interest to me. Maybe the fact that it is a farce will bite Harper…I doubt it, but we’ll see.
September 22, 2008 at 3:58 pm
You don’t have to be clairvoyant to know that there are deli meats that currently have a longer shelf-life than Dion, and the power-brokers behind the scenes are already lining up their picks for who’s going to replace him. And, as long as it’s not the same Maurice Strong/Power Corp thugs that put that thief Chretien in a position to screw Canadians over, I’d be happy with just about anyone else.
September 22, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Hey Kettle!
How predictable. Who’s this troll, by the way?
You don’t have to be clairvoyant to know that there are deli meats that currently have a longer shelf-life than Dion, and the power-brokers behind the scenes are already lining up their picks for who’s going to replace him. And, as long as it’s not the same Maurice Strong/Power Corp thugs that put that thief Chretien in a position to screw Canadians over, I’d be happy with just about anyone else.
You really should indicate a source for your copy ‘n pastes.
September 22, 2008 at 4:12 pm
No copy ‘n pastes, just the facts from what I’ve watched over my lifetime.
September 22, 2008 at 4:15 pm
That’s not what the word “facts” means. Had you completed school past grade 8, you’d know that.
September 22, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Bob’s out ?
September 22, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Facts like Adscam, Shawinigate, selling judgeships to loyal Liberals, using his power to try to force civil servants out of their jobs for refusing to give his pals government loans, appointing mob-connected cronies to positions of power, abusing Canadians’ civil liberties when they might prove embarassing (“for me, I put pepper on my plate”), and all of the other facts that came to light over the past 15 years you mean?
September 22, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“Don’t worry, it’ll only be a few more weeks, and then you can throw the absent-minded professor and his Green Shaft under the bus….”
i’ll bet you chimed “mission accomplished!” when castro finally stepped aside….
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 4:34 pm
“Facts like Adscam, Shawinigate, etc….”
ah, “facts”. too bad they lack any meaning without context, nor did they appear in your earlier “fact” ridden comment.
fuck me, but you’re conservative.
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 4:37 pm
“facts”, ti-guy. “facts”. adscam isn’t defined by facts, it is, itself, a fact. a deadly one.
whew! pollyticks….
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Castro is on his last legs now, so I don’t particularly care what happens to him; just as a measure of justice, I think he should be forced to live under the same conditions as the people he has imprisoned on Cuba, however.
What sort of “context” do you think I’m missing when it comes to stealing millions of dollars of Canadians’ money, KEvron? If Bush had done even HALF of the things that that thief Chretien did, his head would rightfully be on a pike, and we would be able to see Washington burning from here.
September 22, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Completely disingenuous, which comes as no surprise, but they poked no holes in it, they just lied.
That bugs me. I hate people who lie. We need to debate the issues. How can we get to the truth, the right things to do, when a group’s willing to lie and distort facts? What are they really afraid of? Why treat the voting public like idiots?
September 22, 2008 at 4:47 pm
whew! pollyticks….
Almost as tasty as a two million dollar “gift” , to Aline , for his stellar public service .
September 22, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Why can’t Bill D. Stupid and the other thing entertain us with 9/11 conspiracies? At least those are relatively fresh and dramatic. The ones surrounding Chrétien are stale.
Anyway, children…this is what happens when an entire generation learns their history and current affairs from message boards and chat rooms.
September 22, 2008 at 4:56 pm
“Castro is on his last legs now”
i hadn’t heard….
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 4:58 pm
“What sort of ‘context’ do you think I’m missing when it comes to stealing millions of dollars of Canadians’ money, KEvron?”
adscam. very adscam. besides the adscam? facts. what context? adscam.
next!
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 5:01 pm
“Why can’t Bill D. Stupid and the other thing entertain us with 9/11 conspiracies?”
why? facts, of course. facts like adscam.
how can these people be SO FUCKING STUPID and still manage to keep their hearts pumping?
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 5:06 pm
how can these people be SO FUCKING STUPID and still manage to keep their hearts pumping?
I don’t really blame them. They don’t all that much more stupid than the Conservative intelligentsia, such as it is.
September 22, 2008 at 5:07 pm
ironic much?
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Or sarcastic… there’s a 5.8% MOE there.
September 22, 2008 at 5:23 pm
So you’re happy to give “da Boss” a pass when a program HE set up, and HE micro-managed, and HE set up his own little fund to finance, was used to steal millions of dollars of Canadians’ money? Colour me sceptical, but why do I think that if Harper did anything even remotely similar, you and Ti-Guy would be the first to show up at 24 Sussex with pitchforks and torches? It stretches credulity to try to believe the official LIEberal line that “oh, this was just some rogue civil servants”, and “So what if a few million dollars were stolen?” What other facts do you want to know, other than the fact that this thief used the Canadian treasury like his own private piggybank, and that money was funneled back into the LIEberal party through a deliberate scheme of evading election and criminal laws? Or, does he get a pass just because he’s a Liberal?
September 22, 2008 at 5:29 pm
$25 million pissed away on the botched JSS contract alone. That’s just one thing that comes immediately to mind. I could easily come up with hundreds of millions more that this government has shot down the drain. AdScam! AdScam! AdScam! It just NEVER gets tired, does it?
September 22, 2008 at 5:37 pm
sdc, i never said any of that. all i want is for you to be less stupid. like just then.
KEvron, u.s.a.
September 22, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Just as I can come up with BILLIONS of dollars that the LIEberals skimmed off and passed to their friends when they were holding the purse-strings, RT. As a fiscal conservative, this sort of thing from both sides disgusts me, but the difference is, the Liberals set their scheme up to deliberately rip off the Canadian public, hide it, and make themselves filthy rich in the meantime. Also, I haven’t seen anyone take issue with any of the OTHER facts I mentioned, such as Shawinigate, where Chretien used his power as PM to force the BDC to give his pal a loan so said pal could buy a hotel from Chretien, or the time that he wanted a photo-op with Suharto, so he ordered the RCMP to break out the pepper-spray and hose down a group of non-violent protestors; “the party of the Charter”, my ass.
September 22, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Holy shit, take the kids to wim lessons and the mouthbreathers invade, scetching the CPC anthem “Adscam, Adscam, Adscam”!
What good little betas they are.
Soma!
September 22, 2008 at 5:46 pm
I could easily come up with hundreds of millions more that this government has shot down the drain.
That’s how the Connies operate. No hands in the till…just wheel-barrows in the vault and all of it perfectly legal. That’s how they break us…every time.
The little idiot SDC thinks the Bush administration is nowhere near as corrupt as the awful Chretien regime was.
Isn’t that sad? I mean, the number of investigations are in the hundreds and are happening as we speak, and still, he can assert something like that.
September 22, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Just as I can come up with BILLIONS of dollars that the LIEberals skimmed off and passed to their friends when they were holding the purse-strings,
Oh, we’re at BILLIONS now. Can I hear a trillion?
September 22, 2008 at 5:50 pm
I await your links…
September 22, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Thirteen years is a lot of territory to cover, so I’m sure you’ll be happy to wait for a few days while I pull a hefty list of Chretien’s malfeasances out of the closet; for starters, we can of course mention:
), the head of the LIEberal party in Quebec testified that the only way to get onto the short list to be a judge in Quebec was to be a loyal LIEberal supporter and volunteer. If that was the way things were run in Quebec, does anyone seriously doubt they were that much different in the rest of the country? What’s that over behind that curtain? Why, it’s Adscam!
- Adscam (did you all get that? Adscam, Adscam, Adscam). A program wherein the LIEberal government of Chretien paid millions of dollars to advertising companies, ostensibly to promote Canada in Quebec, but much of which was paid for work that was never actually done, and which was funneled back into the LIEberal party as kickbacks, and which was paid to various LIEberal campaigns in the form of paper bags full of cash.
- the gun registry. How did a program that we were all promised would cost no more than 80 million dollars (and would actually be “revenue neutral”; sound familiar?) end up costing somewhere near TWO BILLION dollars? If a private company was selling something for an advertised price, but then charged you 25 times the original price, someone would be going to jail. Well, for starters, the computer system that was set up for a simple task was bought, paid for, and scrapped THREE TIMES OVER. Simultaneously, more than $125 million dollars was paid to ad companies (yes, those self-same ad companies that helped run Adscam (Adscam, Adscam, Adscam; did I mention Adscam?) for the purpose of advertising this program, more than three times the original entire promised cost, and we STILL have no idea where all that money went, as it was outside the scope of the inquiry held on Adscam (wait for it… ADSCAM!!!)
- selling judgeships. During the hearings on Adscam (… oh, it’s too fucking easy sometimes
- Shawinigate, a short synopsis of which is seen above. We are asked to believe (among other things), that none of Chretien’s attempts to secure a load for his pal Duhaime had anything whatsoever to do with the fact that Chretien himself would be the recipient of those monies, and that Chretien (a lawyer) accepted an undated “receipt” scribbled on the back of a napkin as somehow “official”. (ahem; …. Adscam)
- and more to come…
September 22, 2008 at 6:30 pm
scrolled it.
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Adscam.
September 22, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Gimme an “A”! Gimme a “D”! Gimme an “S”! Gimme a “C”! Gimme another “A”! Gimme an “M”! What does it spell?
September 22, 2008 at 6:47 pm
You forgot to mention David Dingwall’s chewing gum.
FAIL.
September 22, 2008 at 7:01 pm
“What does it spell?”
“troll”?
are you ‘nuts born without dignity, or does it require hard werk?
KEvron
September 22, 2008 at 9:22 pm
SDC — Get over it already.
September 22, 2008 at 9:43 pm
RT,
103 posts.
You generated a little excitement here.
Good work.
Ti-Guy,
If you want a “trillion”, you’re going to have to head south and check the level of chutzpah coming out of the Bush White House.
September 22, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Tomm — I’m rather un-thrilled.
Sorry, just spent the last couple of hours arguing with my daughter about Medieval history… and the Latin semantics of Petrarch. Now that got me excited!
September 23, 2008 at 3:57 am
I could include ALL the various examples of LIEberals using the public purse like their own private chequing account, Ti-Guy, but I don’t think RT has the account space to handle it.
“Dignity”, Kevron? Please, show me where either your or Ti-Guy’s posts show even a semblance of “dignity”; until then, spare me the faux outrage.
Finally, RT, why is it that when Canadians dwell on Liberal malfeasance, we’re told to “get over it”, but when they dwell on Conservative malfeasance, it’s something to be fostered, nurtured, and spread to the four winds? I have no doubt whatsoever that Mulroney was involved in some shady shit (one of the reasons I couldn’t vote for him after his first term), but he was a rank amateur compared to the fleecing that Chretien pulled off; ideally, I’d like to see them sharing the same prison cell.
September 23, 2008 at 5:25 am
First of all, sorry for not responding sooner, but I had to wipe the spittle off the computer from your frothing rants.
Second, as soon as anyone unloads the “LIEberals” word, I kind of tune out. Not really a partisan thing. I do the same when folks use “CONservatives” too. It’s intellectually lazy, tedious and quite frankly dumb. I get immediately bored. If you want to howl at the moon, go to Rabble.ca or someplace, okay.
Third, this is the Internet dude; you’re not taking up space on my hard drive.
Finally, I’m not really that hung up on Mulroney and his supposed “malfeasance”… or “spreading it to the four winds” and so on. Not that it probably matters to you because you seem so intent on perpetuating your ridiculous little narratives, but my assessment of the man is relatively “fair and balanced” as far as such things go. I didn’t much like him at the time, but will happily acknowledge some of the good things that he did — the GST, for example, and the FTA (which I’ve said before was a “necessarily evil” but that has benefited Canada on the whole). As for the corruption and such… well, that’s politics for you. I’ve got a pretty laid-back attitude towards that sort of thing, which is why a grubby little scandal like AdScam never really got any traction we me.
So, as I said. You need to chill. If you think the “LIEberals” are evil, well you’re entitled to that opinion. Seems a bit silly and unfair to me, but you might want to start focusing a little more beyond the Chrétien years…
September 23, 2008 at 7:16 am
“Evil”? No, not necessarily “evil” (at least in most cases). Vindictive? Yes. Misguided? Positively. Power-hungry? Definitely. Willing to ride roughshod over anything that stands in the way of getting that power? Absolutely. But not necessarily “evil”. However, what bothers most Canadians about Chretien is not really the sheer slimy nature of what he did and the way he acted, but also the way in which his party can see no wrong in what he did, simply because he managed to win three majorities against a divided opposition; “power trumps all”, in other words. And if that’s the way that the Liberal party truly thinks, then that scares the hell out of me.
September 23, 2008 at 7:20 am
Never fear a new TORY DYNASTY is on the way. You can go back to sleep for 10 yrs. or so…
September 23, 2008 at 7:59 am
Thank you. I’m going to print this, cut it out, and frame it.
“…but my assessment of the man [Mulroney] is relatively “fair and balanced” as far as such things go. I didn’t much like him at the time, but will happily acknowledge some of the good things that he did — the GST, for example, and the FTA (which I’ve said before was a “necessarily evil” but that has benefited Canada on the whole).”
September 23, 2008 at 8:16 am
I’ve said this before.